Whippled DA Engine Makes 851 hp/870 torque at the wheels on 91 octane/17 lb boost

[sandman]

Thank you for sharing your in house experiences albeit different in many areas from mine.

It is sad IMO that you ask about what pellets he is using to make the numbers, then you say you are not calling him a liar, and then you come back with another round of statements none of which as shared were based on your understanding of that which we continue to do with Ed's gal. It would be wonderful is you did not sway like a branch in the wind. If you decide to participate then stand by that which you say instead of back peddling; all can see this.

In my world If I do not know I ask rather than insinuate that what I am being told is not true.

Ed's motor is "extreme" and the internal tweaks are far more than most would entertain and yet Ed wanted to share the results so folks could see that which can be accomplished.

Within her heart is the best crank swinging the best rods moving a custom set of 10.1 CR pistons sealed with thicker stainless steel rings, modified oiling, custom cams spun using only the best custom chains and tensioners, flowed and ported heads with over sized custom valves, ATI balancer and lightened flywheel, ARP hardware throughout, and the list goes on.

At this time she has no more fuel; in fact for her to migrate through a mile event this will have to be addressed because it is one thing to have a strong gear blast and very much another to have a extended pull at such power levels; we know and have discussed this.

John aka AccuFab is a good man and a friend and we have done cool stuff together; this motor is another such an example. I was reluctant to bump the CR however in the end it was the perfect decision and she is a phenomenal gal to exercise.

Now as for bringing twin turbo’s into the thread; I did so in part so folks would understand that like horsepower does create the basis for like kind exercising; the Whipple’s gal and the twin turbo gals play well together and yet find their strong points in different arenas.

Takes care

Shadowman

Interesting and thanks for letting us see inside Ed's motor.

 

[Fubar]

In my research I have come across a few example of GTs that gain about 80hp from the head work and another 50-60 in the cams. The crank mainly adds a layer of reliability but also allows the motor to safely spin to 8500 (and perhaps with less safety to 9500). Throw in a few light weight rotating parts and bingo, you get what they got.

Simple? Yes
Cheap? No, not remotely... Even by Ferrari standards.

Congrats again.

 

[RALPHIE]

...Ed, if you are ever in SoCal area I'll pay for the dyno session as I think clearly there's a calibration problem locally - perhaps due to the air quality differences from NorCal.

No way, Kendall - I was up there at the time and, if anything, it was a very hot day (> 85° F), the altitude at Placerville is ~2,600 ft. - leading me to believe that at normal pressures and temperatures, the results would have even been higher.

 

[Shadowman]

In my research I have come across a few example of GTs that gain about 80hp from the head work and another 50-60 in the cams. The crank mainly adds a layer of reliability but also allows the motor to safely spin to 8500 (and perhaps with less safety to 9500). Throw in a few light weight rotating parts and bingo, you get what they got.

Simple? Yes
Cheap? No, not remotely... Even by Ferrari standards.

Congrats again.

I thank you on behalf of Ed as he is out of town for a few days; he will appreciate your comments as do I.

Ed is a Ford GT guy through and through and has created for himself "his" dream realized and at no time did it matter what another thought which in part is what makes his walk through the numerous phases so cool; IMO

In many ways this act is similar to yours.

Takes care

Shadowman

 

[sandman]

Nota4re:
You called into question Ed’s 800hp in a previous thread also disparaging any shop that “snowed” their customers on believing that number. You asked where is a dyno sheet showing 800 rwhp, now Ed has provided one and you can’t deal with it. Instead of either choosing to simply say “nice chart” or “thanks for posting Ed” or easier yet not posting you choose to dump all over his thread because you have decided it can’t possibly be true. Why not take a step back and rethink your course.

 

[jaxgt]

Well put. It's not nice to snipe at other folks and imply dishonesty etc... I'd rather it not be like some of the other car forums around here.

Nota4re:
You called into question Ed’s 800hp in a previous thread also disparaging any shop that “snowed” their customers on believing that number. You asked where is a dyno sheet showing 800 rwhp, now Ed has provided one and you can’t deal with it. Instead of either choosing to simply say “nice chart” or “thanks for posting Ed” or easier yet not posting you choose to dump all over his thread because you have decided it can’t possibly be true. Why not take a step back and rethink your course.

 

[2112]

Yeeeee Ha,

Now this is an entertaining thread! :biggrin

 

[Shadowman]

Yeeeee Ha,

Now this is an entertaining thread! :biggrin

And informative too; I like threads that many can garner "quality" and fun information.

Thank you for adding another reply

Shadowman

 

[RALPHIE]

By the way, Bill - Thanks so much for your assistance - I'm a happy camper! - :thumbsup

 

[eg1985]

If D/A said it I believe it. Great job!

 

[B.M.F.]

The power from inside the motor is coming from, the compression, cams and head work. The crank is as heavy as the stock crank if not heavier (52lbs i believe and i can weigh both tomorrow and the rods are heavier aswell, pistons are probably close to same weight as stock but idk, I just have aftermarket ones laying around. The only difference in the timing chains is the secondary chains that run the cams as there prone to break, also the one tensioner on the one head for the secondary tensioner is different as they are week and cause the two cams to be off in timing up to 7 degrees. The primary chains are stock as no one makes them yet.
The compression alone here is worth over 100 hp over stock compression.

You want impressive 5.4 power. There was a 5.4 GT style motor just dyno'd with stock compression, a whipple 4.0 with 21lbs of boost unported heads with some chamber work, a set of stock lift custom cams that made 1297 hp and over 1000ftlbs of tq. Make this motor 11.5 to one and it would make t.t killing power.......
This combo would make over 1075rwhp in a gt. With out spray

Once the cam technology is figured out for the blower combo's in these motors they will make some more power yet. I know that im glad im waiting and ive been busy, cause the nhra guys are spending a ton trying to get every ounce of power out of these combo's for the Cobrajet cars. Which are the same motors minus dry sump. I got a good feeling that 1650flwp will be no problem with my centrifical comboand 30+lbs of boost. We will c.

What type of dyno is this that you guys were using? Dyno jet, mustang dyno? Does this car have a stock air box? I look past most dyno numbers unless there on a dyno jet. They are the most accurate out there, well that is my belief anyways.

 

[STORMCAT]

Great Numbers Ed and great work Shadowman. :thumbsup Bill was kind enough to share Ed's engine build with photos and a detailed write up years ago. I guess most of you missed it or forgot.

There are not to many people who have built motors with after market cams and all of the other mods that help support the higher air flow that the cams allow. The cams can drastically change the volumetric efficiency of the motor so trying to compare Ed's Whipple car to others is just not apples to apples ..

There are many bolt on Whipple's of the same size and the 4.0"s but I would say there are no others with this exact same set up as Ed's motor so questioning the numbers or trying to compare it to a Whipple bolt on no mod motor is silly.. If you hear Ed's car run it is super sick.. the lopie idle is sinister .. I look forward to seeing all of you In SLC.. Anyone want to talk brakes !! :biggrin

 

[nota4re]

so questioning the numbers or trying to compare it to a Whipple bolt on no mod motor is silly

Exactly the opposite. I think we are all in agreement that the delta gains are coming from the internal engine mods. I think there is merit in normalizing/isolating the effect of the Whipple so we can see from where the improvements are made. So, we are all in agreement that it is the internal work - an area probably far less explored (and equally less understood) as compared to the "bolt on" mods.

the lopie idle is sinister

On this there has never been disagreement! But, concluding that lopey idle = more power is, by itself, a flawed conclusion.

 

[BlackICE]

Nota4re:
You called into question Ed’s 800hp in a previous thread also disparaging any shop that “snowed” their customers on believing that number. You asked where is a dyno sheet showing 800 rwhp, now Ed has provided one and you can’t deal with it. Instead of either choosing to simply say “nice chart” or “thanks for posting Ed” or easier yet not posting you choose to dump all over his thread because you have decided it can’t possibly be true. Why not take a step back and rethink your course.

:agree:



IMO there is a large difference between parts installers and real "tuners". Parts installer, install and service cars with off the shelf components with know characteristics and often just add the expected (published) HP gains and are often baffled when the dyno results don't work out. In most cases the dyno numbers don't meet expectations. e.g throttle body 15 HP, K&N filter 10HP add them together and you will gain 25 HP. No chance!

Another mis-conception is that HP gains on a blown motor are proportional to boost. If I put a potato in your exhaust pipe the boost will go up but the HP will go down! The relationship of boost to HP are dependent on a lot of other factors. John M. and Shadowman understand these other factors and thus IMO are a large step above the crowd when you want to go where no man has gone before.

I have driven Ed's car and it is a beast compared to my stock motor with a Gen1! Not even close and my car dynos out at about 740 RWHP. So I can easily believe the dyno chart from my butt-o-meter.

 

[B.M.F.]

For those of you doubting what it could make and what the compression is capable of doing, here is a good read for you. John Mahovetz (accufab) did this motor in 2004 for a good friend of mine who was also our Chaplin for Fun Ford Weekend the series we raced. This dyno test with compression has been talked about on all mustang forums when it comes to talking about the effects of compression and boost in the mod motor family. Also John only spun the blower about 58000rpms in this test. Where a F2m procharger likes to be about 80000.....There was alot left with this combo and just never was maximized. Don't worry I will have that covered in my build with a bigger blower too.

Start on page two as page one is about a 4.6 motor. The second page starts on the 5.4 build and then page 3. It shows dyno graphs Na with 8.3 and 11.8 compression and then boosted with 8.3 and 11.8 compression. Picked up 215 hp with the compression change alone boosted. 65 hp na from the compression change.

http://www.musclemustangfastfords.com/tech/mmfs_070022_ford_compression_ratio/msd_ignition.html

 

[Apollo]

Wow you guys, Kendall in no way is trying to take away from Ed. Kendall has an impeccable reputation and has been a tried and true Forum supporter and sponsor from the start. He is just trying to interject his experience and known facts with multiple cars and, in my opinion. is just trying to protect the Forum from unrealistic expectations. He has 100% backed up his reputation and work and spends an enormous time researching and delivering exactly as promised for the benefit of us all. If Kendall goofs up, he is the first to admit it. When things he has done aren't as promised, he is the first to admit it. All Kendall has said is these results are extraordinary. There are many questions brought out by this performance. For instance, I am curious about how does a higher compression GT engine stay safe at that boost with only 91 octane gas and pushing it hard enough to run short on fuel? I think there is a lot of information that would be helpful so these type of results can be replicated and I think that is all Kendall has been doing here.

 

[nota4re]

Let's take this one step at a time.

"It is sad IMO that you ask about what pellets he is using to make the numbers, then you say you are not calling him a liar"

It is not Ed doing the dyno testing and reporting on the numbers - he has merely chosen to publish them. You insist on making this personal between Ed and I and it is NOT. But thanks for your continued efforts to try to set people against each other.

My reference to Uranium pellets was the same as a reference to some kind of secret sauce - why do you find it offensive? I am inquiring about the secret ingredients... be they uranium pellets or state of the art internal mods. As the thread is unfolding, more and more is revealed about the internal mods that have taken place... and reminding some of us that this was a build documented a while back. Yes, perhaps my first post on this thread may have been abrasive - and for that I apologize but it was in response to a post of a Gen 2 Whipple car with 17 psi of boost. My subsequent posts have yes been explicitly skeptical... because namely that the results are just so impressive - and as I said previously never having been achieved before. Add this to my one lone exposure to the car in a venue and format in which I am very familiar - and the car performed consistently with other Whipple cars - nothing more. And yes, I do recall chatting with Ed at the Mile venue and he stated that he had some type of catalytic converter failure (or something like that) that compromised the performance of the car.

The bottomline is that Ed's car - with whatever work has been performed internally and at whatever expense, is yielding a ~200HP advantage from anything seen here before. Significant? Yes or no? I say significant. On top of that - and perhaps even more impressive, is that this (presumably) not a track-only car, but a car that can be driven and enjoyed everyday. Where Accufab can build some very impressive, purpose built track motors.... it is all the more impressive to combine all of that into a tame, street-driveable machine. So, hell yes, I am a skeptic! In my small mind, these kinds of gains were not relizeable. I could be wrong. Stranger things have happened!

 

[BlackICE]

The bottomline is that Ed's car - with whatever work has been performed internally and at whatever expense, is yielding a ~200HP advantage from anything seen here before.

To set the record strait, Ed's car as about 100 more HP more than a stock block motor, not 200. Whipples with a stock block can achieve 750 RWHP. So 100 is believable but I would agree than 200 isn't. Don't focus on comparing boost numbers that isn't the right thing to do!

 

[nota4re]

IMO there is a large difference between parts installers and real "tuners". Parts installer, install and service cars with off the shelf components with know characteristics and often just add the expected (published) HP gains and are often baffled when the dyno results don't work out.

Holy cow, team Shadowman.... slow down for a moment as we need to get some more oil boiling before they start climbing the walls!!!

Ice - this isn't the first time that you've made this insinuation about Cool Tech and it probably isn't the last... but you are very naive if it is your perspective that we are a "parts installer" in a league of "real tuners". Maybe just a glance into the shop this week would start to convince you otherwise - but that's an opportunity I probably wouldn't welcome. You just might see an engine-less GT or maybe some engines under construction. If you go back a few years - maybe you would see a 5.7 Hemi in a Jeep Wrangler - some 6 months after one was displayed at SEMA but which was not running. Then to know that yours truly built this first-on-the-street Hemi with ALL smog and engine/body management working harmoniously when everyone said it was impossible. Perhaps you didn't know that Cool Tech (before it was Cool Tech) developed the still-used-today street tunes for SC'd NSX's using some propritary hardware interfacing with the OEM ECU. Maybe last year when we build a stroker 302 from the ground up inbetween GT build-ups for a dear GT customer. Or, maybe you missed the boat when it was Cool Tech who pioneered mods to the already great Heffner TT kit - mods which yielded significant power improvements across a broad RPM range. So, your BS "parts installers" insinuation is just offensive - and akin to calling one of the kids ugly. We're very proud of what we do and the owners we've had a chance to meet and work with. I don't think there's any of those who work with us as their go-to parts installers. Go stick it.

 

[Shadowman]

Let's take this one step at a time.

"It is sad IMO that you ask about what pellets he is using to make the numbers, then you say you are not calling him a liar"

It is not Ed doing the dyno testing and reporting on the numbers - he has merely chosen to publish them. You insist on making this personal between Ed and I and it is NOT. But thanks for your continued efforts to try to set people against each other.

My reference to Uranium pellets was the same as a reference to some kind of secret sauce - why do you find it offensive? I am inquiring about the secret ingredients... be they uranium pellets or state of the art internal mods. As the thread is unfolding, more and more is revealed about the internal mods that have taken place... and reminding some of us that this was a build documented a while back. Yes, perhaps my first post on this thread may have been abrasive - and for that I apologize but it was in response to a post of a Gen 2 Whipple car with 17 psi of boost. My subsequent posts have yes been explicitly skeptical... because namely that the results are just so impressive - and as I said previously never having been achieved before. Add this to my one lone exposure to the car in a venue and format in which I am very familiar - and the car performed consistently with other Whipple cars - nothing more. And yes, I do recall chatting with Ed at the Mile venue and he stated that he had some type of catalytic converter failure (or something like that) that compromised the performance of the car.

The bottomline is that Ed's car - with whatever work has been performed internally and at whatever expense, is yielding a ~200HP advantage from anything seen here before. Significant? Yes or no? I say significant. On top of that - and perhaps even more impressive, is that this (presumably) not a track-only car, but a car that can be driven and enjoyed everyday. Where Accufab can build some very impressive, purpose built track motors.... it is all the more impressive to combine all of that into a tame, street-driveable machine. So, hell yes, I am a skeptic! In my small mind, these kinds of gains were not relizeable. I could be wrong. Stranger things have happened!

You are wrong; even more sad is the fact that even when folks other than myself have tried to enlighten you no real support for Ed and his projects has been shown.

I am not a liar nor is Ed and it is based on your input with this thread I fall back to my origiinal desire and which was "never" to share the dyno plot.

All the best

Shadowman