Who here is using a conventional lead-acid Battery in the GT???

[nota4re]

Please chime in here if you are using a conventional lead-acid battery in your GT. Also, it would be great if you could indicate if you've ever had a bad gauge since having the lead-acid battery.

(Note: I suspect that we will have so few responders with conventional batteries that it will statistically impossible to make a good conclusion.... but we are still fishing for the root of the gauge problems, hence this attempt to gain knowledge.)

 

[STORMCAT]

Hey Kendall, Freeflyer / Britospeed has spent some time working on the inside of the gauges. We talked about gauge failure a while ago. I think he old me there is a small servo that is the weak link . He concluded that it fails or siezes for various reasons. you may want to PM him??

 

[Jim]

I had re-charge troubles with the original Optima and also gauge issues. Replaced it with an Autolite , Lead-Acid. No troubles since (2 years worth anyways)

 

[HHGT]

Kendall may be on to something here. Did Ford put an Optima in the GT because they knew that they would sit more than get driven? And if that is the case, why the trickle charger to go with the Optima?

 

[RALPHIE]

Kendall may be on to something here. Did Ford put an Optima in the GT because they knew that they would sit more than get driven? And if that is the case, why the trickle charger to go with the Optima?

I believe that the need for a trickle charger is independent of the battery type. It is necessary due to the current draw of the various computer systems of the vehicle and thus the battery depletion during storage for periods of more than a week or 2.

Kinda like leaving the glove box open (on cars with a lighted glove box) or the radio on in the old days before cars started using memory devices requiring power to hold the memory values.

 

[pe2unia]

Hey Kendall, Freeflyer / Britospeed has spent some time working on the inside of the gauges. We talked about gauge failure a while ago. I think he old me there is a small servo that is the weak link . He concluded that is fails or siezes for various reasons. you may want to PM him??

Yes Stormcat that is correct as Michael has a failed gauge of mine with the intention of coming up with a fix. Michael has had a few unexpected things come up so it may be a little while longer in getting our solution.

 

[SteveA]

Thanks for taking on this fight for all of us Kendall!

 

[DWR46]

In the spring of 2009 I replaced the Optima with a standard Group 78DT battery, and wrote a thread detailing the process (easy). No more gauge problems, battery holds charge for a LONG time, IMO the only way to go.

 

[Empty Pockets]

I believe that the need for a trickle charger is independent of the battery type. It is necessary due to the current draw of the various computer systems of the vehicle and thus the battery depletion during storage for periods of more than a week or 2.

Kinda like leaving the glove box open (on cars with a lighted glove box) or the radio on in the old days before cars started using memory devices requiring power to hold the memory values.

The lead acid unit in wifey's Bimmer HAS TO HAVE a trickle charger hooked up to it nightly too for the same reason - all of its electronic nannies are doing their thing 24/7. We learned that the hard way when, after own the car 18 months or so and NOT hooking it up a 'charger nightly, the battery was SHOT. As you suggested, having a gel battery wouldn't have changed that IMO because 'a load is a load' regardless of battery type. The 'juice' hasta be replenished no matter what type of 'storage box' the car may have.

Now, that said, we haven't had ANY gauge pblms with the Bimmer...or any OTHER "luxo" putt-putt we've owned regardless of low voltage, regardless of having "jump started" 'em, regardless of possible voltage surges - regardless of ANYTHING. So, it's hard for me to imagine that the TYPE of 12 volt source one uses has anything to do with the GT's gauge pblms. 'Not saying it COULDN'T. 'Just saying it seems awfully unlikely.




(Side note regarding wifey's Bimmer: We were told by the dealer that a modern Bimmer MUST BE driven at least 40 miles a day to keep the battery charged otherwise the above results will occur!:bs And, since wifey only drives her car 6-8 miles per day, the dealer also t-r-i-e-d to say that: 1- it was OUR fault the battery had failed BECAUSE, 2- we hadn't DRIVEN the car enough AND, 3- we hadn't put a 'charger on it, so, 4- we therefore had ABUSED the battery!!!!! 'Sounds to me more like the engineering boys at BMW need to install a more 'SKOOKUM' alternator at the factory - AND AN AUTO SHUT OFF FOR THE NANNIES WHEN THE IGNITION KEY IS IN THE O-F-F POSITION. :mad) (Oh - BTW, BMW paid for that battery! TRUST ME. :bored)

 

[nota4re]

So, it's hard for me to imagine that the TYPE of 12 volt source one uses has anything to do with the GT's gauge pblms.

Larry, that's exactly the point... a 12v source is NOT a 12v source. The Optima's most definitely have different characteristics and that is what I was pointing out. You won't find a lead-acid batery that'll crank like an SOB but have voltage less than 12v. Also DWR46's post immediately prior to yours seems to suggest that the battery's sensitivity to current draw is also much better. At rest current draw is a relatively easy thing to measure and I will try to concoct a way to measure it and report to the Forum.

 

[Shadowman]

IMO there are far too many gals with OEM batteries and have had "zero" failures so IMO looking for an alternate battery design is far from the answer.

Now add to this; I would "not" use a lead accid battery in the Ford GT because of the associated risk should it crack, blow up as they do, as well as the gassing.

Shadowman

 

[Lorenzo]

IMO there are far too many gals with OEM batteries and have had "zero" failures so IMO looking for an alternate battery design is far from the answer.

Now add to this; I would "not" use a lead accid battery in the Ford GT because of the associated risk should it crack, blow up as they do, as well as the gassing.

Shadowman

I feel the same way, Knock on wood, all my guages work fine and i am still running the original battery. {build date 12-05}
I keep it on a tender when it is not being driven and i always wait untill all the guages come on line before i hit the start button. i don't know if all or any of this has anything to do with it but it's working for me so far.

 

[BlackICE]

I feel the same way, Knock on wood, all my guages work fine and i am still running the original battery. {build date 12-05}
I keep it on a tender when it is not being driven and i always wait untill all the guages come on line before i hit the start button. i don't know if all or any of this has anything to do with it but it's working for me so far.

I think your procedure would minimize gauge failures. I didn't think about starting after the gauges are online, but I will do this as well.

 

[Empty Pockets]

Larry, that's exactly the point... a 12v source is NOT a 12v source. The Optima's most definitely have different characteristics and that is what I was pointing out. You won't find a lead-acid batery that'll crank like an SOB but have voltage less than 12v. Also DWR46's post immediately prior to yours seems to suggest that the battery's sensitivity to current draw is also much better. At rest current draw is a relatively easy thing to measure and I will try to concoct a way to measure it and report to the Forum.

Like I said, Kendall, I'm not saying IT ISN'T possible, just that it seems highly unlikely to >me<...a "NON" engineer. (Eg: All FGTs came with the same brand gel battery, but, only a RELATIVE few have had gauge troubles. If the battery were the source of the pblm, one would THINK far more - if not all FGTs - would have to have had the issue.)

Now, that said, up until about 4 months ago, I also thought Roe vs. Wade were the choices Geo. Washington had for crossing the Delaware, so... :cheers

 

[Shadowman]

How about it being as simple as this; the gauges are crappy gauges?

Now even though this a off-the-cuff comment it is partially based in fact.

AutoMeter; a company that has for many years created wonderful gauges that are recognized and used by many with very few redundant failures created these gauges; or maybe better put created them based on Ford’s directive. I was told long ago that when AutoMeter was brought on board with the Ford GT project that they presented to Ford at least two options; one of which was a design consistent with their normal gauge production and the other a less expensive option based on Ford’s directive the latter of which was selected by Ford. Now is this true; I can only say that the comments have now been shared by more than one source and they are not connected with each other as such I suspect yes.

So what is the answer; an alternate battery design “no” as measuring surface and load voltage of a battery is very easy and when like values are seen the net result from the battery will also be the same; voltage and amperage does not know from where it comes; thinking otherwise makes no sense.

So why are some of the gals affected and others have remained completely under the proverbial radar; I suspect that this has to do with when the gals were assembled. There are 8 primary grounding points all of which have a painted surface with two of them being under the dash and this could be the cause; sadly to clean those under the dash requires one to; remove and discard the polished stainless steel door sill inserts, remove the door sill cover, then remove the leather kick panel at the base of the A pillar at which point they are right there.

Could it be that some folks have less than stellar batteries as such upon start up there is a voltage spike that causes the gauge to fail; maybe. Could it be that as with sadly, any typical production that some of the batches of gauges produced were/are simply crap, maybe.

The bottom line IMO is we have been and will continue look for a fix for what I consider to be a design flaw; this flaw either in the gauges and or the OEM interface however we are doing this knowing full well that the fix would be a patch and not the correcting of the issue.

Now back to an earlier comment with regards to the primary grounding points; there is one at the front of each frame rail accessible once the inner fender liner is removed, there is the one at the battery negative cable to the chassis, there is one under the upper portion of each kick panel, there is one as the rear of each frame rail that are easy to access if you remove the rear portion of the rear wheel liner, and the one that goes from the chassis to the black on the driver side and this is easy to access with the belly pans off.

So if it were me I would swallow the pill and purchase a new pair of polished stainless steel door sill inserts, remove the front inner fender liners, remove the rear portion of the rear wheel liners, and remove the belly pans and at each grounding point remove the 10mm head bolt and then remove the paint from the surfaces and also run a thread chaser through the holes to make certain that all is clean and then methodically reassemble everything.

The process could be completed in a casual Saturday afternoon with the only expense being the polished stainless steel door sill inserts, 20 black pin in retainers, and a piece of sandpaper.

My gut tells me that this is not only a prudent but also viable plan.

If I can assist in any way please let me know as this is not rocket science.

Takes care

Shadowman

 

[2112]

How about it being as simple as this; the gauges are crappy gauges?

Shadowman

If this is true, and it sure appears that way, a real good answer would be for Ford to authorize Autometer to release an upgraded set of gauges to those who want them.

That and the above grounding correction. I have fought several electrical gremlins in my boats over the years and nearly all turned out to be grounding issues.

:usa

 

[Beach-GT]

I had a lead acid blow up once....not pretty. Just turned the key and whammo. Just bought a net Optima for the GT.

 

[Shadowman]

I had a lead acid blow up once....not pretty. Just turned the key and whammo. Just bought a net Optima for the GT.

IMO “smart” move

Although it does not happen often however if it ever happens to you it is an act that you will "never" forget.

It sounds like a gunshot and it can happen whether in the gal or working at or near the battery ; the later happened to me many years ago ....... safety glasses saved my day however the secondary damage caused to the vehicle never ended as the corrosion is never completely stopped.

I no more want to go back to conventional lead acid batteries than do I wish to drive a Model T on a daily basis; both served their purpose and were a basis to be developed from.

Shadowman

 

[nota4re]

I no more want to go back to conventional lead acid batteries than do I wish to drive a Model T on a daily basis; both served their purpose and were a basis to be developed from.

Bill, I don't know how you are categorizing lead acid batteries, but for me and others it is the familiy of battery types with that technology including, "conventional" GEL cells. The Optima is a unique "Spiral" (marketing BS) absorbed glass mat (AGM) battery. I would venture to say that fewer than 5% of all modern production cars are using an AGM designed battery and as such, if you are implying that use of a non-AGM battery is akin to driving a Model T, then I find your analogy far-fetched.

As for you point that the gauges themselves are faulty - I agree..... This can be easily validated by replacing a bad gauge with a new gauge and then everything is working again (at least for awhile) so at the end of the day, it is the gauge that fails and I further agree that a more robust gauge design may well be the best root solution.

Until and unless that happens, the question is if there are things that we can do to mitigate a gauge failure... essentially insulating the gauge from whatever it is that is causing them to physically fail.

One fact is that we know that the gauges act peculiar when subjected to low voltages. Many owners have experienced a gauge failure but a far greater number of owners have experienced the temporary loss of one or more gauges because of what we commonly believe is a low voltage condition. So, the leap (and it is a leap) is to make the assumption that the temporary, low-voltage related anomolies might be related to the hard failures. Saying that they may be related infers a relation to low-voltage condition - perhaps a "vulnerability" of a poor gauge design. Now is where we differ. I say that the battery in the GT is unique in the production car world... and that anomolies in the battery - low voltage anomolies, might be statistically better in a conventional battery which is used by 90%+ of the automotive world. Somehow, you have twisted what I have said by saying that doing so may substantially increase the chance for a battery blow-up (give me a break) or by replacing the cherished Optima might take us back to the model T days.

So what is the answer; an alternate battery design “no” as measuring surface and load voltage of a battery is very easy and when like values are seen the net result from the battery will also be the same; voltage and amperage does not know from where it comes; thinking otherwise makes no sense.

I have no idea what you are saying here - I am simply stating a fact that the unique construction of the Optimas may have a higher propensity to be "happy" at a sub-12v level as compared to a more conventional and much more popular (go Model T's !!) automotive battery. You get owners to clean the ground points and I'll encourage owners to consider Optima alternatives and maybe together we will have a small impact on improving this unfortunate situation.

 

[BlackICE]

Considering where the battery is mounted, there is a very good chance that any frontal impact is likely to rupture the battery case. Given the publics fear of hazmat materials, I could imagine how a "minor" fender bender could easily result in a lengthy road closure, while waiting for the hazmat team to arrive. Could this be the reason that Ford chose to go with a AGM battery? Maybe some gov reg.