Total timing - how much?


everetto

GT Owner
Sep 4, 2006
186
Desert Southwest
What do these engines like? Seems like many with the Whipple at 19 lbs boost are running 18 to 19 degrees total advance (WOT) on their pump gas tunes (91 octane). My question is how much timing does the engine like on 100 octane gas? 22? 24? More?
 
Aug 25, 2006
4,436
How much timing……. Now that is a question that hopefully no one has the perfect answer for.

Your gal will tell you how much she can deal with and this number is best found as you carefully move up the scale.

Meaning the 18-20 as being used for the 91 octane gals has become a good run of thumb however there is far more than the octane rating that dictates the maximum timing one can use.

1. Quality of the fuel; not simply the listed octane as all fuels are not the same
2. The stability of the discharge air temperatures; meaning do they fluctuate a lot based on differing driving styles and if yes then the worst case needs to be the bases for the tune.
3. The stability of the engine operating temperatures; as mentioned above this is important because if you tune with the gal in the 190 degree range however in real time she spends more time in the 210 range then the tune needs to be appropriate
4. How will the gal be exercised; for example a simply clear your head gear blast once in a while, long extend hard pulls, or maybe on the track because each of these will create a different scenario
5. Elevation at which she will be exercised
6. The engine load as the result of the static gearing as well as the gear and RPM at/in which you put the proverbial hammer down

Now with the use of quality 100 octane fuel is it possible to advance the timing into the 22-25 degree range; certainly however I would never do so arbitrarily but rather I would methodically and incrementally give a little at a time until she says “enough”

I would also make darn certain that in advancing the timing further that you (as close as possible) duplicate over and over the real time driving circumstance that she will be exposed to so as not to artificially mask what could end up being too much timing.

These gals have NO knock sensors other than your ears and or the ability to see things going wrong on the graph during a dyno pull meaning that unlike many cars of today that have knock sensors which will automatically pull timing and or add fuel when pinging is detected these gals could be quickly damaged if one is over jealous.

I tend to remain on the safe side of life and tune based on worst case; crappy gas, hot days, a heat soaked motor created as the result of her migrating through and sitting in traffic as such she remains happy and willing to be exercised all the time.

Do I leave a few ponies on the table with this mindset; absolutely however we are always able to drive home and return to play again another day

The best of luck with you quest

Shadowman
 

Empty Pockets

ex-GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Oct 18, 2006
1,362
Washington State
Do I leave a few ponies on the table with this mindset; absolutely however we are always able to drive home and return to play again another day


:thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :cheers
 

everetto

GT Owner
Sep 4, 2006
186
Desert Southwest
How much timing……. Now that is a question that hopefully no one has the perfect answer for.

As is typical, you make good points Bill. I know we have discussed this a bit in the past, and like you I am not looking for anything extreme, but I would like to get to a point where I have two tunes and can swap back and forth depending on the occasion. My pump gas tune seems pretty good and safe, and I hope to build a more aggressive high octane tune in the future for the occasional romp and/or dyno run just to see what she will do. Also, as we have discussed, my high altitude allows cars in my area to go with more total advance, so I hope to be able to optimize my tunes for the altitude.
 

AMB

GT Owner
Aug 29, 2005
401
San Diego,Ca.
Timing ?

I just installed a 3.0" upper pulley and have 13psi. I had Jerry W. check my tune and he added 6* of timming to the stock timming of 19*. I now running 23* @ 1.99 load and 27* @ 1.79 load on 91 octane.

AMB
 

Fubar

Totally ****** Up
Mark II Lifetime
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Aug 2, 2006
3,979
Dallas, TX
Question: Is there a "Global Timing" setting and what should it be.
 

tmcphail

GT Owner/Vendor
Mark IV Lifetime
Apr 24, 2006
4,103
St Augustine, Florida
Yes there is a Global Spark Adder. Generally its left to zero and you just build the spark tables the way you want them to be.
 

Empty Pockets

ex-GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Oct 18, 2006
1,362
Washington State
Question: Is there a "Global Timing" setting and what should it be.



White House switchboard 'number: 202-456-1414 :lol
 

Fubar

Totally ****** Up
Mark II Lifetime
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Aug 2, 2006
3,979
Dallas, TX
Yes there is a Global Spark Adder. Generally its left to zero and you just build the spark tables the way you want them to be.

Is it possible for a tuner to retard global timing and add WOT timing?
 

tmcphail

GT Owner/Vendor
Mark IV Lifetime
Apr 24, 2006
4,103
St Augustine, Florida
Is it possible for a tuner to retard global timing and add WOT timing?

Yes one could do that but you would be adding and subtracting at the same time in the same area.

I would just setup the BKT table to what you want in the first place.
 

Fubar

Totally ****** Up
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Aug 2, 2006
3,979
Dallas, TX
Yes one could do that but you would be adding and subtracting at the same time in the same area.

I would just setup the BKT table to what you want in the first place.

I agree. I'm afraid I had a tuner go in and monkey around with this setting to make it appear like he added more timing to WOT (just a theory now). I am going to be taking the car to another shop but I want to have some idea about the parameters. I will be looking for this "global timing" number. It should be zero, correct?
 

tmcphail

GT Owner/Vendor
Mark IV Lifetime
Apr 24, 2006
4,103
St Augustine, Florida
I agree. I'm afraid I had a tuner go in and monkey around with this setting to make it appear like he added more timing to WOT (just a theory now). I am going to be taking the car to another shop but I want to have some idea about the parameters. I will be looking for this "global timing" number. It should be zero, correct?

It defaults to 0 but you can use it to add or subtract. The correct way to do it is to set the Borderline Knock Table to command the spark that you want RPM vs LOAD
 

PL510*Jeff

Well-known member
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Nov 3, 2005
4,901
Renton, Washington
White House switchboard 'number: 202-456-1414 :lol


You forgot to put in the extension for Al G.:rofl
 

Empty Pockets

ex-GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Oct 18, 2006
1,362
Washington State
You forgot to put in the extension for Al G.:rofl


1: He duzzunt HAVE a White House extention ennymore, and,

2: I didn't wanna get political! :lol
 

nz05gt

GT Owner
Apr 28, 2006
380
taupo new zealand
Get it wrong and this can happen:thumbsdow:ack
4500 racing miles only.
going on dyno today to run in and tune new motor.

NZ05GT
 

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tmcphail

GT Owner/Vendor
Mark IV Lifetime
Apr 24, 2006
4,103
St Augustine, Florida
True !
 

Fubar

Totally ****** Up
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Aug 2, 2006
3,979
Dallas, TX
I took my car to a local tuner (not my normal guy, Shawn) who has a good reputation with the Ford software. We are now seeing a lot of heat in the exhaust and Shawn suggested it might be a situation where the tuner does not have enough timing in the car and therefor the motor is pumping more hot gases into the exhaust.

Does this sound reasonable.
 

tmcphail

GT Owner/Vendor
Mark IV Lifetime
Apr 24, 2006
4,103
St Augustine, Florida
We are now seeing a lot of heat in the exhaust


Out of curiosity how or specifically why is this being measured ?
 

MAD IN NC

Proud Owner/ BOD blah bla
Mark IV Lifetime
Feb 14, 2006
4,219
North Carolina
That's because it's so damn cold in Fla. and Tx..............

27 in Tampa, Dallas under Ice.... Any heat source is a good heat source!
 
Aug 25, 2006
4,436
I took my car to a local tuner (not my normal guy, Shawn) who has a good reputation with the Ford software. We are now seeing a lot of heat in the exhaust and Shawn suggested it might be a situation where the tuner does not have enough timing in the car and therefor the motor is pumping more hot gases into the exhaust.

Does this sound reasonable.

Fubar

Shawn is very sharp and without more information I would agree that it is plausible because it is more than just peak timing that can affect the exhaust temperatures.

Keep in mind that the extreme race teams use EGT as a significant measurement when tuning.

Takes care

Shadowman