New Generation Eaton Blower

[californiacuda]

Concerning parasitic loss, In Richard Holdners book, BUILDING 4.6/5.4 FORD HORSEPOWER ON THE DYNO, page 161 details the difference in hp between a supercharged and a turbocharged 4.6 Ford engine.

With the Eaton sc at 11psi, 572 hp was made, and with twin turbo's 750 hp was made. A difference of 183 hp, supposedly demonstrating the approximate parasitic loss.

The Whipple is more efficient than the stock Eaton, cams and other variables can effect the results. Based on this book and other info, I thought that the parasitic hp loss at full power with the Whipple 3.3 would be greater than around 70?

The Whipple 3.3 is a fantastic unit, especially for the Ford GT. I am just trying educate myself on different aspects of its operation.

 

[DoctorV8]

I know a few of the engineers that worked on the program, and they're incredibly happy, but if we could make the screw for 1/4 of the current cost, there is a good chance it would've been on there. So, in OE, the bang for the buck of the TVS was great.

Great info, Dustin, thanks. In OE trim, do you think the efficiency of the twin screw warrants its higher cost relative to the Eaton TVS? Is it truly 4x more expensive than the TVS?

 

[DoctorV8]

The New ZR1 Vette uses a newly developed Eaton R 1900 Blower , 20% more air flow , 35% lower parasitic drag. It has 4 vanes vs 3 . Do you think we could persuade them to make one for the GT? Anyone in for a group buy??

It appears that the smaller blower will indeed be under the hood....of the CTS-V. The 2.3L seems to be unique to the LS9. The Caddy motor is going to be known as LSA.

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/01/08/detroit-2008-2009-cadillac-cts-v-revealed-with-550-hp/

 

[Whipple Charged]

Great info, Dustin, thanks. In OE trim, do you think the efficiency of the twin screw warrants its higher cost relative to the Eaton TVS? Is it truly 4x more expensive than the TVS?

Look at it this way, the same TVS sc is being sold for the Shelby GT500 and at max speed, is making around 620rwhp. On the LS9, they make 620, on a very good engine, although setup somewhat conservative. Therefore, where is all this power? Spin it to 18,000? Still not much left, so yes, I feel having the potential of 800+rwhp is worth it.

Thanks,
Dustin

 

[Whipple Charged]

Concerning parasitic loss, In Richard Holdners book, BUILDING 4.6/5.4 FORD HORSEPOWER ON THE DYNO, page 161 details the difference in hp between a supercharged and a turbocharged 4.6 Ford engine.

With the Eaton sc at 11psi, 572 hp was made, and with twin turbo's 750 hp was made. A difference of 183 hp, supposedly demonstrating the approximate parasitic loss.

The Whipple is more efficient than the stock Eaton, cams and other variables can effect the results. Based on this book and other info, I thought that the parasitic hp loss at full power with the Whipple 3.3 would be greater than around 70?

The Whipple 3.3 is a fantastic unit, especially for the Ford GT. I am just trying educate myself on different aspects of its operation.

Screw compressor is very efficient at high pressure levels. To note, another reason why turbos make more power is the airflow losses. It takes more energy to make the air make bends, especially quick ones. Turbo's typically have nice bends, bigger tubing, are being forced through the TB versus having to try and suck through it, etc. Makes a difference in the power spectrum, but does not show up on a blower tester.

Also, the Eaton standard gen4 roots is so far below a screw at even 11psi that it's not even comparable.

Thanks,
Dustin

 

[DoctorV8]

Look at it this way, the same TVS sc is being sold for the Shelby GT500 and at max speed, is making around 620rwhp. On the LS9, they make 620, on a very good engine, although setup somewhat conservative. Therefore, where is all this power? Spin it to 18,000? Still not much left, so yes, I feel having the potential of 800+rwhp is worth it.

Thanks,
Dustin

Dustin,

The minute you have a Whipple kit out to replace the undersized 1.9L TVS in the new Cadillac CTS-V, please call me. Looks like the car goes into production at the end of the year.

An 800 rwhp Caddy sounds like my kind of daily driver.

 

[BlackICE]

New rotor profile, up to 15% increase in airflow which allows for lower compressor speeds to equal same flow, which lowers temps and power consumption (parasitic). Gains will be in the 20-40hp range depending on boost levels and tuning.

Thanks,

Dustin

Is this the new blower that is going into Bony's car? Can the new rotors be retrofitted into existing 3.3L Whipples?

 

[jdoc7]

New rotor profile, up to 15% increase in airflow which allows for lower compressor speeds to equal same flow, which lowers temps and power consumption (parasitic). Gains will be in the 20-40hp range depending on boost levels and tuning.

Thanks,
Dustin

Dustin, any idea when the new blower will be available? I'm looking to add one in the near future. Are we talking a couple months or year? If it's a year or more, I'll likely go with what's out now.

 

[GFORCE]

I Will Wait

Having two whipple GTs and all the other tricks, but i have a all parts inc
motor comming for a back up hummm.I can see that new whipple on it now.
Thats going to kook good in my living room.

 

[Whipple Charged]

Is this the new blower that is going into Bony's car? Can the new rotors be retrofitted into existing 3.3L Whipples?

A rotor assembly can be retro fitted. Same housing.

Official release is approx. 6 weeks, but there will be a few beta testers out there before that.

Thanks,
Dustin

 

[jdoc7]

Official release is approx. 6 weeks, but there will be a few beta testers out there before that.

Sweet! Something to look forward to in Spring!:thumbsup

 

[Black GT]

Count me in!!

 

[cobrar1339]

Interesting thread guys. Lots of info to digest. Sounds like we will just have to wait how the beta testers perform.

We are very fortunate to have more ways than most to crank out more power from our GT's. Looking at the C&D shootouts, the money poured into the other cars is very high compared to what it takes to get huge numbers from the GT.

Of course our cars cost more to start with, but this is a real plus.

 

[911teo]

Can I ask a very stupid question?

Let's take 2 cars, one with a Whipple and one with a stock SC.

The stock car has a smaller pulley and puts out 680hp at 17psi.
The Whipple car has a very conservative set up and also puts out 680hp but at 15psi.

I am not sure if the above numbers are in the bull park, but what I am trying to figure out is that the motor in the Whippled car will last longer (all else being equal) than the pullied car because it produces the same HP with a less compression.

This is acheived by the Whipple being more efficient.

Is this correct? Or is the Whipple more efficient only at higher compression and higher RPMs?

Thanks and sorry if the above is really silly

 

[BlackICE]

IMHO at boost levels above about 15 PSI. The Whipple will produce power more efficiently (less boost and heat) and for a longer period of time before heat soak becomes an issue. The more the boost the more the differential will be. As far as engine life, at the same HP levels, it should be better with the Whipple above 15 PSI and more so as the HP increases. Is the difference significanant, probably not at 15 PSI, but if your ran the stock blower at 20 PSI it wouldn't last too long.

 

[californiacuda]

If the question is, What type of forced induction will provide the most max hp with the least boost pressure, than a turbo charger is more efficient.

But, the turbo won't produce the massive torque at low rpms, that a screw or roots type blower will.

 

[paul b]

I think the engine doesn't care what boost it's getting. It's only is concerned with the amount of charge air. Once the intake valve closes that's all that counts. More heat soak less charge air.

 

[californiacuda]

The supercharger gets it spinning power from a belt connected to the crankshaft of the engine. It requires substantial engine power to turn the blower.

 

[Whipple Charged]

Can I ask a very stupid question?

Let's take 2 cars, one with a Whipple and one with a stock SC.

The stock car has a smaller pulley and puts out 680hp at 17psi.
The Whipple car has a very conservative set up and also puts out 680hp but at 15psi.

I am not sure if the above numbers are in the bull park, but what I am trying to figure out is that the motor in the Whippled car will last longer (all else being equal) than the pullied car because it produces the same HP with a less compression.

This is acheived by the Whipple being more efficient.

Is this correct? Or is the Whipple more efficient only at higher compression and higher RPMs?

Thanks and sorry if the above is really silly

Boost is just a function of what does not actually go into the combustion chamber, pressure outside the valves, so most associate boost as flow, but it's really a function of airflow/air volume. This is where the larger compressors are better in most cases. But because more airflow will basically give more boost, most refer to this.

With this being said, most SC's have a very broad rpm range, but always have a peak efficiency range. Because these engines are varible rpm, varible pressures, its not possible to have a compressor be at peak efficiency at peak HP/rpm unless you were working with a small rpm ban. So we all try to get the best average, in stock trim, the stock SC is turning 14,000 which is near peak speed from Lysholm. Therefore, it was somewhat maximizied. When pulleying, your going in the 16,000-20,000rpm range, which is past its efficiency. They still pump air, but will produce more heat and take more power to operate.

To make 700+rwhp requires more airflow, thus a larger displacement sc does this more efficiently.

Also, as smaller SC's are spun up, they create more heat, and while quick dyno pulls won't typically show this, steady state applications, drag racing, road course, etc show it dramatically. So if both have the 680 as you mentioned, the larger compressor will almost always give more consistent power.

Last, the one at lower psi or lower temps will give the engine the longest life, therefore temp is one of the most important functions to engine life. Increase the SC discharge temp, and that is has a direct correlation to combustion temp, and sometimes worse. You also have higher chance of detonation, so some can make power on the dyno, where you can typically run 3degs more timing than the street, but with a bigger, better sc, you can keep it much closer to the peak timing #'s.

Thanks,
Dustin

 

[Whipple Charged]

I think the engine doesn't care what boost it's getting. It's only is concerned with the amount of charge air. Once the intake valve closes that's all that counts. More heat soak less charge air.

It's a bit more complicated than this. Most think boost is boost, but that is not the case at all. To get true readings, you must measure in absolute pressure. As temp increases, the density of the air decreases, this means less O2, less O2 makes less energy.

Dustin