Halfshaft Bolt Answers (all threads merged)

[analogdesigner]

A question of logic....

Deleted per request

 

[HHGT]

This is an article back from November, but interesting regardless. Hyperlink to this thread as well!!!

http://blogs.edmunds.com/roadtests/428

 

[HHGT]

WELL WELL WELL - I think we have us a name at Ford

May be, just may be, Mr. Glenn Miller of Ford can address some of these issues! Anyone bought this paper yet? Please let me know before I go buy one.

http://www.sae.org/technical/papers/2004-01-1260

 

[PILOTJPW1]

rumor mill

My friend who cant say who he is, what he does, where he works, thinks that if we keep discussing this, and doing all this analoging and design research here on the forum that maybe a problem that might be there or might not maybe will get solved or not.

 

[B O N Y]

I am not an ME, but have a little common sense and some knowledge of physics and material science. Jay's description of the problem sounds right on target. Also Jay's reluctance to release details due to liability concerns is prudent.

If I were Jay, I wouldn't sell any of these parts due to the potential liability issues.

To cover Jay's butt, the cost per part would be so expensive that very few if anyone would buy them. Again Jay selling/giving the design to Ford would be the best thing to do. Likely to happen, less than 1% chance! Big companies don't like to admit it can be done better outside.

I want to thank Jay for looking into this problem, because it is not a money maker and most likely being done pro bono.

BlackICE

I appreciate your comments, but I know both of us replaced our bolts and washers and wired the new bolts in place. We started as a preventative action and both found out we were on the verge of failures. We both paid to have our cars fixed and did not ask Ford to reimburse us. Quite a bit of commonalty, wouldn't you say?

Now, maybe I need to reread the posts, but I haven't read from Jay, who I respect, a possible solution, or a plan of attack the is going to test on his own car. I know that he is being contacted by an experienced member of this forum explaining ways to reduce legal exposure. This is a frustrating issue.

By the way, by chance did you save you concaved washer, someone here in Fresno wants to source another supply?? PM if we can borrow yours for a couple of days.

 

[HHGT]

My friend who cant say who he is, what he does, where he works, thinks that if we keep discussing this, and doing all this analoging and design research here on the forum that maybe a problem that might be there or might not maybe will get solved or not.

Okay, your post reminds me of a Pinocchio appearance in a new movie where he talks just the way you did to prevent having his nose to grow. English?

 

[Shadowman]

nota4re,

Q: If Ford really understood the problem, why after 4 attempts they still haven't solved the problem?

A: Because back in December they didn't understand the failure mechanism.

If they understood the problem, they would solved it on the 1st attempt. Understand??? Right now, they're shooting at anything that moves.:ack

"He stated Ford is working very hard on the problem, has tried over 4 different solutions (bolts, washers, safety wire, locktite) and still is not sure they have the answer. He also stated this is the reason some have waited so long for the replacement bolts to arrive. At times they have been right in the middle of another update/solution (bolt, washer, wire combo) and couldn't ship."
This conversation took place in Dec....


We put locks on our doors to keep out the honest people

Jay

Relax; everyone is shooting at the same target.

As always I enjoyed our chat a short while ago and feel that you have a good feeling for the cause of the problem. Having shared this I suspect that by now Ford and Ricardo do too. If in fact something as simple as less than consistent tolerances at the splines is a reality then those gals that will be affected are truly an unknown. It would also support the idea that whether an early or late build would make no difference because in the end it would come down to the associated movement at the splines of any given gal.

Now Jay shared that he had a few of his engineering associates look at the situation to garner their opinion and they each said that the problem was able to be easily understood and they also said that it could be corrected rather than patched. Now when I say patched I mean that if the splines on a given gal are loose enough to allow for measurable rotational movement then even with hardened washers, extreme ARP bolts, and then wire tied into place the likelihood is the bolt will crack sooner or later because of the side thrush cycling placed upon them. You see the bolts by design were never intended to take any side load; this was to be managed by the tight fitting splines and the bolts by design are simply there to hold the assembly together.

This is why Jay made mention of the center bolt design because this would allow the splines to lock into place whether rotating forward or backward with no stress placed upon the bolt. It would simply serve as the clamping aka securing device and then by design and its location would allow for a modicum of rotational movement. Now we also discussed how far he should pursue this issue because of liability. He first indicated the idea of simply presenting it to Ford and letting them run with it to which I said “Jay; Ford has already exhausted the funds for this project as such the likelihood is slim and none; furthermore they have a warranty on the gals and if one breaks they will fix it”. When compared to expecting Ford to allocate new money to the process this would likely be the direction they would rest with. We then discussed ways to mitigate his liability concern as such he is preparing some solid scale drawings to share with his engineering associates as well as myself to determine the feasibility and associated cost.

I did not want to spend anymore time in this thread and yet I like all parties involved and feel the tension building as such I hope that I have been able to clear the air a bit.

BTW; Jay shared that he is aware of a gal that has had two failures after having the new hardened washers installed.

Takes care

Shadowman

 

[SYCO GT]

I must say this is all fairly confusing. I have a 2006 Ford GT, VIN 1559.

I contacted Ken Grody Ford, and they have ordered the "update kit" and will call me when it comes in. (1,900 miles, no known problems yet)

I've read all the failures, and am not aware of multiple failures. But is it the general opinion that current Ford "upgrade kit" will not generally improve the condition / problem at this point?

I want to be as pro-active as possible, but also would hate to "jump the gun" and do work that won't put my GT in a substantially better condition with respect to likelihood of occurence.

Any thoughts appreciated.

 

[BlackICE]

By the way, by chance did you save you concaved washer, someone here in Fresno wants to source another supply?? PM if we can borrow yours for a couple of days.

Yes, I saved the 2 bent washers and I believe the 4 bolts. I am not sure if I have all 4 bolts though. The washers have indentations where the bolts heads touched. It is clear that the washers were deformed by over torqueing, or over stressing.

BlackICE

 

[BlackICE]

BTW; Jay shared that he is aware of a gal that has had two failures after having the new hardened washers installed.

That is very useful information, supporting the loose spline theory. A repair was done with new parts and they still broke. Any information on the mileage and type of use between failures? Did the same side fail twice, or one failure on each side?

BlackICE

 

[AZGT]

Just an idea, so wonder if any of you engineering guys could answer this.

What if we changed from bolts to studs (maybe wth some locktite) with castle nuts and cotter keys or studs with lock nuts?

Any thoughts?

Everyone went off on Jay or Jay's ideas. I want to draw back to this idea of studs with cotter keys or lock nuts.

Any ideas? Would this work? Sorry, not smart enough to know te answer, but same effect (holding) but from a different direction. I think I would trust this before a bolt (wel, maybe no since a bolt has more contacting threads).

If (big if) the studs stay in place, car would still move even if lock nut came off. Shear should be OK. Cotter keys worked in the "old days." What about now?

 

[B O N Y]

Yes, I saved the 2 bent washers and I believe the 4 bolts. I am not sure if I have all 4 bolts though. The washers have indentations where the bolts heads touched. It is clear that the washers were deformed by over torqueing, or over stressing.

BlackICE

Hello,
Can you send me one washer for sizing? I would appreciate it. I will be glad to return it, if you desire. Thanks!
Cheers,
Daniel S. Bonyhadi
2555 West Bluff Ave. Suite 105
Fresno, Ca. 93711

 

[BlackICE]

Hello,
Can you send me one washer for sizing? I would appreciate it. I will be glad to return it, if you desire. Thanks!
Cheers,
Daniel S. Bonyhadi
2555 West Bluff Ave. Suite 105
Fresno, Ca. 93711

I will send one of them to you as soon as I find some stamps. You may hold on to it until my lawyer needs it as exhibit A.

BlackICE

 

[B O N Y]

I will send one of them to you as soon as I find some stamps. You may hold on to it until my lawyer needs it as exhibit A.

BlackICE

shhhhhh.... that is the secret pass word to close a thread. Between you and me this one has ran it's course. Appreciate your help. G'night:biggrin

 

[BlackICE]

shhhhhh.... that is the secret pass word to close a thread. Between you and me this one has ran it's course. Appreciate your help. G'night:biggrin

Bony, you should have let me know about the secret word before. I would have used it when I saw the word Lonestar in a post.

BlackICE

 

[analogdesigner]

Jay,

In you post #261 you are responding to a quote I did not make. It came from a different member. It would be great if you could make the correction.

nota4re,

The message was to make an important point when you had questioned whether I should have been commenting Ford's understanding of the problem:

Finally, you yourself quote
Quote:
Even Ford does not understand the problem!
So again, after 4 attempts, why didn't the problem get solved the 1st time??? They still do not have the problem solved. Do you???

 

[B O N Y]

Bony, you should have let me know about the secret word before. I would have used it when I saw the word Lonestar in a post.

BlackICE

The safe word is: PALOMINO
You will get it if you watch SNL:lol :biggrin :lol

 

[AZGT]

Unfortunately, the holes for the attachment points are very close together and there is not sufficient room for securing any nuts onto studs. In fact the small distance between the holes is the reason (I presume) that allen-head bolts are used.

You're right. Made me go look at a picture. Does make it tougher when they are so close together. Back to the thinking board.

 

[AZGT]

Double posting problem

 

[gtjoey]

OH MY GOD A NAKED HALFSHAFT :eek DOES THIS SITE HAVE NO SCRUPLES!!:biggrin GTJOEY ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ:thumbsup