E85 - Green and Mean GT Possible?

[Empty Pockets]

I am sticking to cool-aid CA 91 octane and my measly 730 RWHP for everyday use.

Only 730 RWHP??? Aaaaaaaaaah...poor baby! How DO you deal with the deprivation??? :willy :lol

 

[B O N Y]

when the big whipple become available poor clinton can then pick up another 75hp.

 

[BlackICE]

when the big whipple become available poor clinton can then pick up another 75hp.

Bony I am waiting for the report on the new Whipple. I can get 75 HP more today with race gas an and 21 psi pulley. Is the new Whipple going to be CARB approved too?

 

[B O N Y]

Dustin joined as a supporting sponsor, so I assume he will be answering shortly.
I know he is off to Italy to run a feasability study about importing pizzas, Ferrari's,
vino or something.

But the answer is 800+hp on 91 oct. and spinning the blower slower than I am doing today.

 

[BlackICE]

But the answer is 800+hp on 91 oct. and spinning the blower slower than I am doing today.

Sounds like it must be the 5L blower. Does it fit in the GT? Can you see anything but the blower in the rearview mirror?

 

[Dan Schoneck]

If anyone would like to get a file for e85 in there GT they can Call Andy Wicks @ dynotuneusa 605-753-1101 He designed all the E85 tuning for Diablo Sport and has Converted over 700 vehicles to e85. He can smell Ethonal Fuel and tell u what e rating it is.

Chip i also don't disagree with u at all. The goverment is paying .50 a gal to anyone that produces e85 and the whole thing is a Joke. It would be more than gas if the companies producing it were not getting the money from the goverment. They also have e-15 and 20 in South Dakota which requires really no program change to your vehicle to run. The only thing good about it is i can make 1000 to the tire and go 20 miles and get fuel.
We have seen No corrosive issues either with the e85 except in the 80's stuff cause the plastic can't handle it.

Also we have some 427 vettes ls1 Na stuff up here doing 600 to the tire and nocking down 28 mpg. The gm's will get really good gas mileage on the stuff if the tune is right.

Later and have a good new years to all.

 

[BlackICE]

I would caution owners with custom tunes designed for gasoline to be careful when using high ethanol content fuels. The A/F ratios are different and many customs tunes turn off adaptive learning. This means during close loop operation you with get dynamic learning and correction of A/F ratios but during open loop you will be running leaner as the ethanol content increases. A stock motor doesn't have any issues, since the Ford tune is very rich under high open loop loads, and adaptive learning is enable which will richer up the mixture even during open loop. But I still would run more than 10% ethanol, which is the limit for pump gas in the US.

 

[Dan Schoneck]

I would caution owners with custom tunes designed for gasoline to be careful when using high ethanol content fuels. The A/F ratios are different and many customs tunes turn off adaptive learning. This means during close loop operation you with get dynamic learning and correction of A/F ratios but during open loop you will be running leaner as the ethanol content increases. A stock motor doesn't have any issues, since the Ford tune is very rich under high open loop loads, and adaptive learning is enable which will richer up the mixture even during open loop. But I still would run more than 10% ethanol, which is the limit for pump gas in the US.

You are very right. The best thing would be to have a gas tune already done and then email it to the appropriate person and then the tune could be modified for the ethonal content. E70 is 100 octane and this is used during the winter months. E85 is 105 octane and is used in the summer months from april till octaober. If u have a Tune done and the ethonal is only e 70 and then u put e 85 in it, it will be a problem and the tune will be very Lean. U could NEVER put e70-85 in a Blown app the does not have a tune for it or it will end up in the oil Pan. The best thing would be to get a tune and then put it on a chassis dyno and have it fine tuned.

Dan

 

[AlohaGT]

Dustin joined as a supporting sponsor, so I assume he will be answering shortly.
I know he is off to Italy to run a feasability study about importing pizzas, Ferrari's,
vino or something.

But the answer is 800+hp on 91 oct. and spinning the blower slower than I am doing today.

All this ethanol stuff is educational but 800+whp on 91 and a slower spinning blower is what's really news here!

Dustin, I'm lining up right after you're done with Daniel's.

 

[B O N Y]

Two thing concern me about using E85. Is the fuel system compatible without any short or long term damage to the fuel pump, filter, plumbing, seals and injectors. Another is that E85 has an energy density of only 71% of gas (by volume), so depending in the HP level you are seeking E85 needs about a 41% higher flow rate than gas. Can the stock fuel pump and injectors keep up?

If the above concerns are not a problem, then all that would be needed is to retune the fuel flow vs. air flow. Theoretically the tune has just one parameter to adjust for the switch to E85. The next step after correcting A/F ratio is to adjust the spark curves since E85 has a higher octane rating than gas.


Any takers?

GREAT ADVISE,... The custom tunes are great, but the user needs to be aware of the downsides you have identified. Also, the ideal tune for the drag strip will not be the right one for the track. It is so important to find a balance. Great post. Thanks.

 

[rubbersidedown]

Gentlemen,

Ethanol is BS. It is more than just a failure, it's a disaster. It unquestionably takes more energy to produce it than the product makes.

This was true in the early 1980's- when that report that everyone refers to STILL today. In 20+ years since then, TECHNOLOGY has changed! :wink

In addition, because it soaks up water like a sponge, it cannot be shipped, as gasoline is, through energy efficient pipelines. To transport it, ethanol must be trucked, burning up even more energy.

Ethanol DOES NOT soak up water like a sponge, but it does have retention characteristics, yes.

We have in this country, offshore and onshore, billions of barrels of oil known to be available and accessible. Environmentalists morons and uneducated Americans have successfully prevented our tapping this most efficient energy resource.

True

Instead, these well-meaning but economically and environmentally ignorant individuals have us stripping millions of acres for farmland, using nitrogen and pesticides on a massive scale, consuming billions of barrels of water annually, driving the price of every food stock from tortillas to prime beef to all-time record highs, and consuming ungodly amounts of energy, both electricity and diesel, to produce corn so we can turn it into an unstable, inefficient, and the inferior motor fuel.

There has been little increase in ACRES farmed, actually it has probbly diminished aside from land coming out of CRP. And since the rules of PERCENTAGES are at play, the $.04 more in corn it takes to to make a box of cereal, somehow turns into a $1.00 change in the grocery store. I don't believe the price of DIESEL has increased because of farming- that has lead to the highest increase in most of the price increasing (please explain that price increase???)

In energy as in everything else, if it makes sense, the free marketplace will do it. We have over 300 million people in this nation all looking for a better way to do everything. We have 535 arrogant elitists in Washington with egos so large that they think the 300 million people have missed the obvious solution to energy independence that they in their infinite wisdom can clearly see even though none of them has any experience in the energy business. Because their solution makes no economic sense and is therefore guaranteed to lose massive amounts of money, they jam it down our throats by force of law, tax us to subsidize it, making the boondoggle mandatory. For every gallon of gasoline produced with 15% ethanol Congress takes $.50 per gallon from US taxpayers and gives it to ethanol producers.

The $.51 per gallon you are discussing is a BLENDER CREDIT. It DOES NOT go to the producer, it goes to whoever is BLENDING the fuel, most of the time the trucking company that picks it up and BLENDS it. That deduction is SUPPOSED to be passed on to the consumer, but most in the position that receive that are making the profits now...

The cost of this 15% ethanol blend is higher than the gasoline price would be without the ethanol so those same US taxpayers must pay more per gallon at the pump. THEN, because this 15% ethanol blend gives poorer mileage in your car you must fill up more often, burn more fuel, create more air pollution

(E85 produces significantly less emissions),

and spend even more. And to cap it all off, repair costs of your vehicle will generally be greater because of the more corrosive nature of this fuel.

Old wives tale- more info from 1970s and early 80s "gasahol"

Oh, and don't forget the 30% more each month you're spending at the grocery store because of this witches brew.

addressed above, please reply with diesel fuel answer... and also explain why the BILLIONS of tax credits are given to OIL COMPANIES for the last 30 years are STILL IN PLACE after the new energy bill passed, after posting HUGE GAINS in EVERY QUARTER???

Politicians love to talk about, "The failure of the marketplace". I'm not sure there ever has been a failure of the marketplace but if that does occur, it's very rare. The failures of government however, are the norm. Our government has shackled our oil and energy companies that have over 100 years of experience with laws that make it illegal for them to produce and sell us energy in the most efficient manner possible. This is as idiotic as it would be to let a class of third-grade public school kids mandate to the Honda Motor Co. what kind of cars it should build and how it should build and distribute them. Every US citizen is paying a heavy price for our having let this happen.

Chip
Owner/Operator
Team CB Petroleum Properties, LLC

It sounds like you have been listening to what the oil companies are telling you at your meetings, and so have I.

And yes, to answer the gentleman's beginning post, it will make good HP on your GT

 

[BlackICE]

(E85 produces significantly less emissions),

(E85 produces significantly less emissions)

Now that is the bogus wifes tale! Emissions (auto operating) are not changed when looking at cars with O2 sensors and closed loop operation. These types of cars make up over 95% of the fleet in operation. Also some type of emissions actually increase, such as vapor emissions that should be captured by the vapor recovery system, which is designed for good old gasoline!

 

[ChipBeck]

This was true in the early 1980's- when that report that everyone refers to STILL today. In 20+ years since then, TECHNOLOGY has changed! :wink

I have no idea what report you are referring to, and you give us neither sources for your claims or information about yourself/education/occupation/expertise to back up what you say. In addition to being an automobile dealer for a quarter-century I have been a gas and oil dealer for the last 30 years with Mobil, Union 76, Arco and Chevron. I am intimately familiar with refinery operations, gasoline trucking and blending, and I am a published writer on oil company matters. Your hip shot analysis is wrong on just about every point. New technology does not change the characteristics of ethanol and technological changes in both farming and refinery operations have only been incremental during the last 20 years.

Ethanol DOES NOT soak up water like a sponge, but it does have retention characteristics, yes.

If it has water "retention characteristics", as you put it, it soaks up water. It's an undesirable characteristic that presents problems both at the refinery, transportation, and end-use levels.

There has been little increase in ACRES farmed, actually it has probbly diminished aside from land coming out of CRP. And since the rules of PERCENTAGES are at play, the $.04 more in corn it takes to to make a box of cereal, somehow turns into a $1.00 change in the grocery store. I don't believe the price of DIESEL has increased because of farming- that has lead to the highest increase in most of the price increasing (please explain that price increase???)

This paragraph reaches the level of absurd. Even a blind man can spot a doubling in the price of a commodity. The skyrocketing price of corn has led to farmers shifting production from other crops. The price of all farm commodities as well as beef has spiked as a result of our putting our foods into our gas tanks. This point is not arguable, open the Wall Street Journal.

The $.51 per gallon you are discussing is a BLENDER CREDIT. It DOES NOT go to the producer, it goes to whoever is BLENDING the fuel, most of the time the trucking company that picks it up and BLENDS it. That deduction is SUPPOSED to be passed on to the consumer, but most in the position that receive that are making the profits now...

Another comical point. Chevron is my current supplier. From the well head and clear up to the point where they dump it into my underground tanks they handled the whole operation. Trucking companies do not blend fuel and your remark that "most of the time the trucking company that picks it up blends it" is false. Your assertion that the $.50 per gallon blending credit is padding either oil company or trucking company profits can again be shown false by looking up the financial results of public companies in the Wall Street Journal.

(E85 produces significantly less emissions)

According to both the EPA, automobile manufacturers, and the people who produce this fuel, you are wrong again. The purpose is E85 is to substitute something else for a portion of our imported oil. He 85 was not developed to, nor does it, reduce emissions.

Old wives tale- more info from 1970s and early 80s "gasahol"

?????

addressed above, please reply with diesel fuel answer... and also explain why the BILLIONS of tax credits are given to OIL COMPANIES for the last 30 years are STILL IN PLACE after the new energy bill passed, after posting HUGE GAINS in EVERY QUARTER???

Exactly what tax credits are you talking about? You don't have a clue as you're just spouting Democrat party talking points. People like you never say a word when oil company profits and gasoline prices are declining. Even at their peak, oil company profits as a percent of sales are only a fraction of what they are in many other industries that you are not complaining about.

It sounds like you have been listening to what the oil companies are telling you at your meetings, and so have I.

And yes, to answer the gentleman's beginning post, it will make good HP on your GT

Rubbersidedown,

Your post is so rife with falsehoods and misinformation that I must assume that much of this wrong information was posted intentionally. I have a graduate degree in economics and I'm a curious guy. I both read a lot and write a lot on this subject. A post I made first on this forum titled "Non-BS reasons for today's high fuel prices" was cut and pasted on countless forums and ended up finding its way to top management at Chevron Products Company where it was distributed to District managers nationwide. Here in Arizona I have been interviewed by television and radio stations dozens of times on these subjects and have hosted several radio shows as well. I reject the demonstrably false assertions made in your post and I stand by everything I wrote. Cheers. :cheers

Chip

 

[fjpikul]

Hey Chip, how do you feel about imported organs for transplant?

 

[HHGT]

post removed by moderator

 

[ChipBeck]

Organ music.

Hey Chip, how do you feel about imported organs for transplant?

Frank,

The older I get and the closer I come to needing one, the more favorably I look upon import parts. :biggrin Jokes aside, human organs for transplant, like any other scarce commodity, can only be allocated with two methods. With a price or with a line. It is currently illegal to pay somebody as an inducement for them to donate vital organs when they die. We have decided as a nation to disallow market incentives when it comes to this most vital commodity which forces desperate people to get in line, and for many of them, to die while waiting in that line. If I was a man of limited means I would love to have somebody pay $100,000 to my family in the event of my death in exchange for me donating my usable organs for transplant. Such a proposition will sound quite unsavory to many but it would unquestionably increase the supply of transplantable organs and would save many lives. Those individuals paying for their needed organs would then be out of the line for donated organs thus speeding up that line as well. The marketplace is always more efficient than the Socialists line. That's my take on it.

Chip

 

[Spirit]

...... any other scarce commodity, can only be allocated with two methods. With a price or with a line.

........The marketplace is always more efficient than the Socialists line. That's my take on it.

Chip

You are so very much correct. Well said Chip.

:usa:usa:usa

 

[rubbersidedown]

Chip-


I don't think we are ever going to reach an argreement here, but I stand behind what I say as well. You, being and Econ guy, should be able to explain to me a few things. Supply and Demand- Our farmers have been receiving the same price for corn since 1960 as they were up until the ethanol boom (circa 2003+) So, it is absolutely absurd that an industry found a new avenue for there product, and people are willing to pay it? Meanwhile fuel has had a fairly steady increase over the years, although not quite the same rate as inflation until the last few years. I honestly don't believe alot of our nation's problem is due to the increase in corn production/ decrease in other commodities. You sir, took a hip shot in saying we are stripping the land blah blah blah. In fact, ACRES of LAND are decreasing. Productivity on that land has increased almost DOUBLE in the last twenty years, due to advances in fertilizers, GPS based seeding/ spraying/ application. The price for these things has also increased. Corn may not be the answer, but it sure is a good start, and a VIABLE quick upstart. Although the industry has been around for years, it has not picked up steam until lately. There are many advances coming from cellulose based ethanols as well as sugar beets, they are just not as economical to produce (into ethanol) in the US as corn is TODAY. Yes, infrastructure improvements need to be made for distribution. Oil companies didn't do it overnight, either. E85 is $2.18 a gallon here, unleaded is $3.09, making a pretty good alternative to the consumer filling up his fuel tank at the pump. Meanwhile, depending on where you are at in the country TODAY, the retailers (with the right avenues to buy the product) are making REASONABLE margins on the fuel they dispense.

This paragraph reaches the level of absurd. Even a blind man can spot a doubling in the price of a commodity. The skyrocketing price of corn has led to farmers shifting production from other crops. The price of all farm commodities as well as beef has spiked as a result of our putting our foods into our gas tanks. This point is not arguable, open the Wall Street Journal.

once again, the price of corn has raised by about 70%+/- in the last few years (from $2.10 bushel to $3.50), as has the price of wheat and everything else. The market will stablize again- keep your pants on! The price of fuel at the pump, meanwhile, keeps rising. Last time I checked, my suppliers had to charge me a fuel surcharge for delivery, not a Wheaties surcharge for the driver because he couldn't afford to eat...???

As far as the BLENDER CREDIT- this is in regards to E85, and if you don't know about it (becuase you live in AZ, who has ZERO E85 pumps at this time that I know about, www.e85fuel.com) I am going to go out on limb and say you just aren't aware of it. You may want to check with the guys in New Mexico (there are a few pumps in ABQ) and ask, or any other state that has ethanol plants. You might be missing out on some money. And yes, trucking companies DO BLEND FUEL- I have an ethanol loading facility right out my back window. And it's $.51 per gallon. There are so many inconsistencies in reporting and stories that are available, it all depends on who you ask. Reporters get stories so they can SELL newspapers and SELL advertising, so they can make money, right.

Exactly what tax credits are you talking about? You don't have a clue as you're just spouting Democrat party talking points. People like you never say a word when oil company profits and gasoline prices are declining. Even at their peak, oil company profits as a percent of sales are only a fraction of what they are in many other industries that you are not complaining about.

Exploratory credits- the last time I checked there was no gov't funding available for too many other industries that posted HUGE profits to find/ develop new reserves. When most companies go into new product development, they have to stick there neck out. I don't remember the last time we had to help the oil companies out because they were producing a needed product and couldn't make it on their own. Agriculture is needed, as oil/ fuels will always be. With all of the rising costs associated with it, it really isn't an easy task- try to put $400,000 into the ground into the spring and hope it turns into $750,000 by the end of the fall. Hopefully it rains, but not too much. Hopefully it doesn't hail, flood, tornado, bug infestation, whatever. Hopefully the fuel price doesn't raise enough so we can fire up the $160,000 tractor with the $50,000 sprayer to increase the yields, and then have enough left over that when we pull the $200,000 combine out in the field with the $40,000 semi that we can make it to the elevator and sell it for more than what we paid to put it in the ground. Meanwhile, the bank holds onto the note every spring, while we pay $150 cash rent an acre and intrest on the land that has increased in price (again almost double, many ag areas it is now over $3k an acre for farmland.) Yes, some people made some money this year, as they did last year, and if everything goes well, they may again next year.

I am not a farmer, I am not a gas station owner, and I am not anything important. I am not a millionaire, billionaire, nor have riches of any kind, except my family and my life. I am an american, and we supported your industry since the late 1800's, and still do today. This is the internet and you can be as big as you want to be, but that doesn't mean I care. I burn tens of thousands of dollars in fuel a year and will continue to do so. It may not be much, but I am not alone. Ethanol may not be the most efficient answer to all our problems today- give it a couple years and we'll talk. It's here to stay, gentleman.

Just a dumb gun-toten', rollin' in the mud, "where's yer sister at?" midwest hillbilly.
And I am done.

 

[Justin@VMP]

I have not seen any tuners/forum sponsors chime in on this.

Aside from all the political crap....E85 is a good high-performance fuel.

In the short-term, 5-10 years, corrosion should not be a problem. In the long term, who knows. Ford designs all new cars knowing that pump gas throughout the country is already E10 (10% ethanol), but E85 has a lot more ethanol in it.

Yes fuel economy will go down by 20-30% right off the bat, due to the lower energy content. There are some things that can be done in the tune to reduce that loss by 5-10%, and I can do the same things in the tune to increase fuel economy by 1-2mpg on gasoline. My 700HP (crank) GT500 pig gets 23MPG on the highway.

From a tuning standpoint, the Ford GT is an EXCELLENT candidate for E85. We already know the fuel system will support nearly 1000RWHP in stock forum, the dual 38lb injectors and dual pumps can provide massive amounts of fuel. With a BAP and dual shelby GT500 52lb injectors you can support even more power (they are stock length too, direct drop in).

The next benefit of E85, is the ability to run tons of timing, due to the fuels 105 octane rating. On a car with stock boost level this is not a huge benefit, just a small one. However, as you begin to increase boost the need to retard timing on pump gas becomes apparent, and this is where E85s high octane rating comes in. Also, if you were building a car from the ground up you could increase the CR, run a smaller blower, and still make some of the power that the big blower guys are making.

From a tuning standpoint, it would be very easy to run an FGT on E85, and I would really like to try it sometime. I plan to do this with my GT500 when fuel becomes a little more available locally.

Also, E85 is the summer blend, in the winter they use E70 for easier starting in cold temps (high gasoline content makes starting easier). So you have to be aware of this and swap programs on your handheld tuner.

 

[californiacuda]

The reduced fuel economy is actually the reason that the e85 is a better high performance fuel than pump gas. Because the stoich of the E85 is around 9.5 to 1 and pump gas is 14.7 to 1, much more fuel is required. This more fuel(more liquid) cools the entire combustion process. Because of the cooler running condition, more boost, causing more heat can be added without detonation problems. Allowing for more hp.

Nitromethane, the fuel that dragsters use has a stoich of around 2 to 1, allowing for incredibly high boost pressure. The massive quantity of liquid fuel to air ratio substantially cools the combustion process.