E85 - Green and Mean GT Possible?

[ChipBeck]

Never let the facts get in the way.

Gentleman,

I know, I know, never argue with.....

Everybody's entitled to their own opinion rubbersidedown, but nobody's entitled to the wrong facts. I can't help myself. :biggrin

Chip-

You, being and Econ guy, should be able to explain to me a few things. Supply and Demand- Our farmers have been receiving the same price for corn since 1960 as they were up until the ethanol boom (circa 2003+) So, it is absolutely absurd that an industry found a new avenue for there product, and people are willing to pay it?

No luck, I can't even understand your question.

Corn may not be the answer, but it sure is a good start, and a VIABLE quick upstart.

In order for any energy source to be viable, the fuel resulting from its production process must yield significantly more energy than that fuel took to produce. This is why the hydrogen fuel cell is not viable, as it takes significantly more energy to produce the hydrogen than the resultant fuel makes available in energy. Oil is very efficient as 100 units of energy expended to extract and refine it will result in 500 units of energy being made available in fuels (a 400% efficiency rate). That same 100 units of energy used to farm corn and turn it into fuel will only result in 130 units of energy from ethanol (a 30% efficiency rate). For this reason ethanol is not viable and only exists because of governmental mandates and taxpayer subsidies.

E85 is $2.18 a gallon here, unleaded is $3.09, making a pretty good alternative to the consumer filling up his fuel tank at the pump.

Ethanol has exactly .665 the BTUs of energy per gallon as gasoline. It takes 1.53 gallons of ethanol to equal the energy of 1 gallon of gasoline. According to United States EPA's ethanol mileage tests for all flex fuel models sold in the United States, ethanol gave exactly 2/3's the mileage of gasoline. If you think that paying one third per gallon less for a fuel that will give you one third fewer miles per gallon and requiring you to fill up one third more often is a great deal, then good for you. Perhaps somebody will develop a fuel that gets half the miles per gallon and costs half as much. Then you could really save big! A restaurant waitress once asked Yogi Berra if he wanted the pizza he just ordered cut into four slices or eight slices. His reply reminded me of your analysis. Yogi said, "Cut it into four slices, I don't think I could eat eight."

Once again, the price of corn has raised by about 70%+/- in the last few years (from $2.10 bushel to $3.50), as has the price of wheat and everything else.

Perhaps you understand the law of supply and demand after all.

As far as the BLENDER CREDIT- this is in regards to E85, and if you don't know about it (becuase you live in AZ, who has ZERO E85 pumps at this time that I know about, www.e85fuel.com) I am going to go out on limb and say you just aren't aware of it. You may want to check with the guys in New Mexico (there are a few pumps in ABQ) and ask, or any other state that has ethanol plants.

Boy, I'm sure glad you straighten me out on this one. Below is a photograph of one of my fuel invoices from the Chevron Oil Company for Arizona unleaded gasoline containing a small percentage of ethanol. Those idiots obviously don't realize that the ethanol blending credit that they include AND LIST on every one of my fuel invoices should only concern E85 which I don't even sell. I look at and pay those invoices every day and I thought I was aware of the ethanol credit until you told me I didn't know about it and that it doesn't even exist except as regards E85. The 10 gas stations in Arizona currently selling E85 as well as the ethanol plant in Pinal County, Arizona are all figments of my imagination. You could probably save major oil companies billions of dollars by pointing out to them their faulty understanding of legal and regulatory issues as regards their own business.

Exploratory credits- the last time I checked there was no gov't funding available for too many other industries that posted HUGE profits

When exactly, was the last time you checked? Your careful analysis somehow missed those tens of billions of dollars doled out to millionaire farmers every year to support the price of crops at above market levels and, I love this one, not to farm a large percentage of their land. I have two good friends who have never farmed a day in thier life. They own substantial tracts of land and collect massive subsidies every year for not farming it. Hell of a deal!

I am not a farmer, I am not a gas station owner, and I am not anything important. I am not a millionaire, billionaire, nor have riches of any kind

This is hard to believe as you are an expert on everything.

we supported your industry since the late 1800's, and still do today.

I'm sure they appreciate the help.

Just a dumb gun-toten', rollin' in the mud, "where's yer sister at?" midwest hillbilly.

Precisely the type of person who should be doing in-depth analysis of major industries that you have no experience with. Are you Bill Clinton?

Chip

 

[B O N Y]

! A restaurant waitress once asked Yogi Berra if he wanted the pizza he just ordered cut into four slices or eight slices. His reply reminded me of your analysis. Yogi said, "Cut it into four slices, I don't think I could eat eight."


Chipper you crack me up... MAKERS MARK MANHATTANS for you

 

[Dan Schoneck]

I have not seen any tuners/forum sponsors chime in on this.

Aside from all the political crap....E85 is a good high-performance fuel.

In the short-term, 5-10 years, corrosion should not be a problem. In the long term, who knows. Ford designs all new cars knowing that pump gas throughout the country is already E10 (10% ethanol), but E85 has a lot more ethanol in it.

Yes fuel economy will go down by 20-30% right off the bat, due to the lower energy content. There are some things that can be done in the tune to reduce that loss by 5-10%, and I can do the same things in the tune to increase fuel economy by 1-2mpg on gasoline. My 700HP (crank) GT500 pig gets 23MPG on the highway.

From a tuning standpoint, the Ford GT is an EXCELLENT candidate for E85. We already know the fuel system will support nearly 1000RWHP in stock forum, the dual 38lb injectors and dual pumps can provide massive amounts of fuel. With a BAP and dual shelby GT500 52lb injectors you can support even more power (they are stock length too, direct drop in).

The next benefit of E85, is the ability to run tons of timing, due to the fuels 105 octane rating. On a car with stock boost level this is not a huge benefit, just a small one. However, as you begin to increase boost the need to retard timing on pump gas becomes apparent, and this is where E85s high octane rating comes in. Also, if you were building a car from the ground up you could increase the CR, run a smaller blower, and still make some of the power that the big blower guys are making.

From a tuning standpoint, it would be very easy to run an FGT on E85, and I would really like to try it sometime. I plan to do this with my GT500 when fuel becomes a little more available locally.

Also, E85 is the summer blend, in the winter they use E70 for easier starting in cold temps (high gasoline content makes starting easier). So you have to be aware of this and swap programs on your handheld tuner.

Justin
I am putting together a GT500 Korn based car. Gt alum short block, fox lake ported heads, set of custom cams along with a reverse procharger f1r. It will be runnin in the next two weeks with the stock motor, 96lb injectors a return style fuel system with both the intake pumps and a magnafuel efi tunerto boot. To run a blower car on Korn and make 900+rwhp u need one hell of a fuel system, because of the fuel to drive the blower. So say u make 900 to the tire and 1050 at the flywheel you now need 1300+ worth of fuel system.
So pretty much 160lbs injectors and a killer pump, There are some new 120s out there but i have not tried them yet.

There is only one guy in the country right now that has probally done 50-100 500+rwhp Korn cars and the is Andy wicks at dynotunes. He knows exactly how much most of these cars will pick by just switching to Korn from gas.

Later Dan

 

[Justin@VMP]

Yes the parasitics for a blower are the 1000hp level are huge...thats one reason why I prefer another form of un-natural aspiration.

I have put my stock bottom end 2000 3.8L Mustang into the 10s, and it would never have happened with a supercharger. It took a pair of turbos to do it.