Dire Times for the Auto Industry


dbk

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Maybe they should model their business like Honda and Toyota do in non union states like Georgia where they seem to be running profitable companies.

All do respect Jamie, that's a myth. The only reason transplants exist is to make sure anti-Japanese sentiment isn't fomented in America. It has nothing to do with running a profitable car building enterprise in the U.S. They could easily build these cars cheaper elsewhere and make more money, but they do it so people here don't get too pissed that we let foreign countries sell whatever they want here and we can't get the U.S government to assist in not just free but fair trade. You send a ship loaded with cars to Japan, each one has to be inspected (therefore effectively making it impossible). They send a ship here and 2500 cars come off with no such restrictions.

Honda's operating profit in the U.S last quarter fell 81%. Toyota's operating profit in the U.S last quarter fell 99%. These are the two big hitters and they too are beginning to feel the joys of trying to sell cars in North America. Ford runs, in decent economic times, very profitable enterprises globally.
 

BlackICE

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Honda's operating profit in the U.S last quarter fell 81%. Toyota's operating profit in the U.S last quarter fell 99%. These are the two big hitters and they too are beginning to feel the joys of trying to sell cars in North America. Ford runs, in decent economic times, very profitable enterprises globally.

Dave, are the non-US profits for all the major auto companies more stable? If so what is it about the US market that makes consistent profits so illusive? I believe the credit crunch is also affecting the non-US market and therefore would expect profits to be falling in around the globe.


And I do agree the main reason we have Honda, Toyota, BMW, and other plants in the US is to lesson buyers resistance to non-US makes. Most of of the profits go back to the homeland, while they make minimal or no profits in the US, thus pay little or no corp income taxes. They do provide jobs and benefits to US workers in exchange to political influence they need to expand their market share.
 

Fast Freddy

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i am all for the gov't taking my tax money to bail out Ford :usa maybe then Junior can get his azz in gear and build me the Shelby GR-1......

i currently own 3 Ford Trux and 2 Ford cars. i think its about time Ford bails me out :rofl

ford-shelby-gr-1.jpg
 
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tpraceman

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Again if we loose Ford GM & Chrysler aside from all that we have discussed.

Who will we buy our cars from?????????:skep

Communist China????????:skep

How much do you think they will charge????????:skep


And what do you think we will get to buy????????:skep

Just food for thought........:skep
 

dbk

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Dave, are the non-US profits for all the major auto companies more stable? If so what is it about the US market that makes consistent profits so illusive? I believe the credit crunch is also affecting the non-US market and therefore would expect profits to be falling in around the globe.

The U.S delivers the most sizable profits but least stability. It's been hard for everyone to make money consistently in Europe, but you don't get wild swings like you do here. Ford SA turned a couple hundred million in profits the last few years. Ford Europe has done well recently prior to the meltdown, and certainly never lost $8 billion in a quarter. Everyone is getting hammered everywhere now though.

You have to figure, people in America (biting my tongue) are proving to be completely devoid of personal responsibility. In the 90's and early 00's, they turned in massive profits because of truck and SUV sales. Why? Because that's what people bought and they were loaded with profit. Ford brought the Mondeo (best selling car in Europe at the time) to the U.S as the Contour and while it was decontented, it was still a complete and total failure. Nobody wanted it.

So trucks were about 15% of the market 2 years ago. Everyone is happy. Gas goes up like crazy. Trucks fall to 8% of the market. Everyone screams "save me save me" and asks for fuel efficient cars. Ford redoes the budget to spend billions re-tooling for small cars. Everyone gets on TV chastising the industry for building gas guzzling big cars. Gas falls because of economic malaise, and suddenly trucks are right back to 15% of the market! Everyone still cries "save me save me" but nobody backs it up by actually buying a small car. Give me a break!

So you have a situation where the Toyotas and Hondas of the world have been building tiny little econoboxes to satiate the natural need for small cars in their home markets (where we can't sell) and fuel sippers in Europe where governments levy dollar for dollar taxes on gas, and the domestics build what people here actually buy. But when forces outside of the domestics control change people's buying habits, who do they blame for not building the right product? The car company. Newsflash, these businesses require hundreds of millions of dollars in tooling and investment per vehicle. Now that the Japanese are getting in the game big with the Tundra, Titan, Ridgeline, etc, they too are feeling the swings. This lack of a need for global products from the big three has made their cost of doing business higher.

The best thing that could ever happen to the Big Three would be a massive permanent fuel tax levied by the U.S government. It would end this bullshit charade that we are operating in a "free" market. There's a reason everyone in Europe drives an econobox that gets 40 mpg, and it's not social responsibilty. If you're building cars in Europe, you don't have to worry about building a 5-adult V8 sedan that can shift 150,000 units. You definitely don't have to worry about building it, and then when gas goes up, having politicians on TV claiming you build the wrong products after it spent a decade at the top of the charts. I'm quite sure that without it, the next time fuel dips, all those small cars the domestics invested in will sit on lots unsold just like they always have when gas was cheap.
 

B O N Y

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THANKS Dave, appreciate the post very much.
 

Cobrar

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The best thing that could ever happen to the Big Three would be a massive permanent fuel tax levied by the U.S government. It would end this bullshit charade that we are operating in a "free" market. There's a reason everyone in Europe drives an econobox that gets 40 mpg, and it's not social responsibilty. If you're building cars in Europe, you don't have to worry about building a 5-adult V8 sedan that can shift 150,000 units. You definitely don't have to worry about building it, and then when gas goes up, having politicians on TV claiming you build the wrong products after it spent a decade at the top of the charts. I'm quite sure that without it, the next time fuel dips, all those small cars the domestics invested in will sit on lots unsold just like they always have when gas was cheap.

Jury's out on a massive gas tax. I hear that solution discussed quite a lot from legislators. To me, the gas tax seems as though it's like a lazy man's way out of a complex issue. Yes, it seemingly levels the playing field, but (although it is a wish), I would much prefer to see my elected representatives work for their dollar, step up to the(ir) mess and disposition it the right way. Unlike a tax (which the legislators don't pay), they get some equity in the solution when they have to work through the issue.

Also, a gas tax of that magnitude also brings with it the spector of who gets the windfall and what they do with it. I hear the gears churning away in Washington already - NEW REVENUE! Perhaps we should ask Neilda (over in the UK) how it is working out over there before we move on it.
 

dbk

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Jury's out on a massive gas tax. I hear that solution discussed quite a lot from legislators. To me, the gas tax seems as though it's like a lazy man's way out of a complex issue. Yes, it seemingly levels the playing field, but (although it is a wish), I would much prefer to see my elected representatives work for their dollar, step up to the(ir) mess and disposition it the right way. Unlike a tax (which the legislators don't pay), they get some equity in the solution when they have to work through the issue.

Also, a gas tax of that magnitude also brings with it the spector of who gets the windfall and what they do with it. I hear the gears churning away in Washington already - NEW REVENUE! Perhaps we should ask Neilda (over in the UK) how it is working out over there before we move on it.

Oh believe me, I HATE the idea of punitive fuel taxes. I think it's a stupid solution to a problem that shouldn't be a problem. But our fellow Americans have just proven over and over that what they say (or rather whine) and what they actually do are two different things. Everyone talks a big game about energy conservation and asks legislators to **** huge industries that employ millions so they can have decisions made for them they refuse to make themselves.
 

BlackICE

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Everyone talks a big game about energy conservation and asks legislators to **** huge industries that employ millions so they can have decisions made for them they refuse to make themselves.

Just read this about already approval coal plants!

http://news.wired.com/dynamic/stories/C/COAL_PLANTS?SITE=WIRE&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

*b*m* said during the campaign that his policies may bankrupt the coal industry to save the environment. He got a good start from the recent court decisions and EPA ruling. The nation better get it priorities right, a clean planet, or healthy economy. Both can be done, but not without more nuke plants. An abundant supply of low cost, reliably energy is the backbone of a growing economy.
 

598

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Who is on the hook for the inventory on the lots if the big three are forced into bankrupcy? What about the specialty cars like Saleen and Roush sitting on the lots? Even if the big three were totally stuck with the inventory, how would you clear it? What about outstanding warranties? Credit lines? Those are some of the issues I haven't heard about on t.v. yet. I'm thinking billions. Someone here has to know.

Thanks,


Steve
 

fjpikul

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Europe can be a nice place, but they certainly lack the wide open spaces we have here in this country. Easy to drive across a whole country the size of Illinois or Michigan. Lots of trains and buses for the masses, which is what the vast majority take to go from place to place for any real sort of distance. Like what the US had till post -WWII. Where is that kind of structure here now? When was the last time you saw a Greyhound bus? I do a lot of interstate driving and they just aren't around anymore. When was the last time any of you took a train anywhere? Here we have two modes of transport - personal vehicles (cars, trucks, SUV, etc) or planes. Europeans can afford higher prices because their little gas tanks don't need to take them very far. I'm not talking metro transports, but city-to-city or cross-country stuff. I'm certainly not going to give up my mansion in the suburbs to live in a high-rise in downtown, or give up my long commute (260 miles one way). Just won't work here. Comparing us to Europe is just not apples to apples.
 

Neilda

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Oct 19, 2005
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Europe is, of course, very different - and we all hate each other. The English hate the French, the Scots hate the English.... European countries are (in very rough terms) 600 miles long and there's 360 million people squeezed in (in all of Europe). Petrol prices in the UK have a nearly 80% tax charge built in making prices nearly $10 a gallon.

But we have great cheese.

When I worked my daily commute was 100 miles by car - that's not too different.

Our automotive companies were crippled by the unions.

As a consequence we don't make cars any more, well, we do, except we don't own the companies.

So we sit in our little Japanese cars that cost $150 to fill up and fume about the tax we've had to pay.

So we're different.

But we have great cheese. :biggrin
 

ThatPhilBrettGuy

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...making prices nearly $10 a gallon.
Yeah, but what with the pounds value, it's more like $0.50 now :(.
 

BlackICE

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Staggering inventory figures!

From

http://seekingalpha.com/article/106...it-s-big-three-face?source=article_sb_popular


At the end of October, GM North America reported it has 799,000 vehicles in stock – consisting of both cars and light trucks. That’s about five months worth of inventory (when measured against the 166,000 sold in October), which is 15% below last year’s inventory, but it’s only getting worse.

At current sales rates, inventory will start to grow. GM expects to produce an additional 567,000 (875,000 total for Q4 minus 318,000 October production) over the next two months. If the October sales rate holds up, despite rising unemployment and falling consumer disposable incomes, GM’s total inventory will increase to 1,234,000 vehicles.

Considering the growing lot of unsold cars and trucks, it’s no wonder the Associated Press warns, “[GM is] practically running on empty already, and analysts and others warn that it might be out of business by the time Obama is sworn in on January 20th.”

Ballooning inventories are the biggest problem the automakers are facing. Insufficient demand and oversupply will always show up in inventories. And, frankly, a $25 billion bailout will exacerbate the problem and will only delay the inevitable; one of the major U.S. automakers is doomed to go out of business before this recession is over.
 

Cobrar

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Europe is, of course, very different - and we all hate each other. The English hate the French, the Scots hate the English.... European countries are (in very rough terms) 600 miles long and there's 360 million people squeezed in (in all of Europe). Petrol prices in the UK have a nearly 80% tax charge built in making prices nearly $10 a gallon.

But we have great cheese.

When I worked my daily commute was 100 miles by car - that's not too different.

Our automotive companies were crippled by the unions.

As a consequence we don't make cars any more, well, we do, except we don't own the companies.

So we sit in our little Japanese cars that cost $150 to fill up and fume about the tax we've had to pay.

So we're different.

But we have great cheese. :biggrin

Thanks for the forward look Neil. About five years ago I asked a friend and former COO of Ford for his forward vision (economy & product) for the US, he pointed me toward the EU, but was hopeful we would get it staightened out before that transpired. While I am a fan of great cheese, I do not wish to share in the remainder of Niel's scenario for the US.
 

Cobrar

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Who is on the hook for the inventory on the lots if the big three are forced into bankrupcy? What about the specialty cars like Saleen and Roush sitting on the lots? Even if the big three were totally stuck with the inventory, how would you clear it? What about outstanding warranties? Credit lines? Those are some of the issues I haven't heard about on t.v. yet. I'm thinking billions. Someone here has to know.

Thanks,


Steve

We are. Inventory (any asset) becomes part of the BK process and disposition is ultimately controlled by a judge who has expertise in running legal matters, not a 'going' concern.
 

tpraceman

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Europe is, of course, very different - and we all hate each other. The English hate the French, the Scots hate the English.... European countries are (in very rough terms) 600 miles long and there's 360 million people squeezed in (in all of Europe). Petrol prices in the UK have a nearly 80% tax charge built in making prices nearly $10 a gallon.

But we have great cheese.

When I worked my daily commute was 100 miles by car - that's not too different.

Our automotive companies were crippled by the unions.

As a consequence we don't make cars any more, well, we do, except we don't own the companies.

So we sit in our little Japanese cars that cost $150 to fill up and fume about the tax we've had to pay.

So we're different.

But we have great cheese. :biggrin

Just wait if the USA no longer is competition to Asia........

Those little cars are going to cost as much as a Bentley.
 

dbk

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I'm certainly not going to give up my mansion in the suburbs to live in a high-rise in downtown, or give up my long commute (260 miles one way). Just won't work here. Comparing us to Europe is just not apples to apples.

Are you telling me you drive 4 hours to work and 4 hours home every day? :skep

The average daily commute is 16 miles. If people want to make it in a Hummer H1 or a Mini Cooper, I could care less. That's 100% a personal decision. Just don't run around like the world is going to end when you make $50k a year and you can't afford to fill up your $50k Hummer with $4 a gallon fuel to drag 1 person to work.

If all that happened was people whining, that would be one thing. But the government, led by frantic politicians who will do anything for votes, takes massive punitive action against the auto companies to sate public bloodlust for someone to blame for their decisions. This business with CAFE and 35 mpg fuel averages will cost the domestic auto industry $85 billion over the next decade. I'm sorry but "we want personal choice, and we want someone else to pick up the tab" doesn't make sense to me. It's like watching people stuff their faces with double cheeseburgers twice a day and then asking McDonalds to pick up the entirety of the national insurance tab. We can't get the public to buy cars that get good fuel economy, so we're going to legislate that manufacturers (at their cost) force the product on them?
 

dbk

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c.gif


Ford better positioned to ride out recession

The Detroit Three are struggling, but Ford could emerge on top
By Dan Carney
msnbc.com contributor
updated 10:14 a.m. ET, Mon., Nov. 17, 2008

The Big Three in Detroit are fighting for a piece of the bailout pie.
General Motors Corp., Chrysler LLC and Ford Motor Co. are lobbying for $25 billion from the government to help them survive the automotive industry’s worst financial crisis.

GM and Ford reported Nov. 7 that they hemorrhaged cash in the third quarter. GM, the nation’s largest automaker, said it lost $2.5 billion and also suspended talks to acquire rival Chrysler. Ford posted a $129 million loss in the third quarter and said it will eliminate another 2,260 jobs. It burned through $7.7 billion in cash.

The Senate plans to take up the cause of the distressed automakers on Monday.

Ford — perhaps more than its two domestic competitors — may be in a better position to weather the economic storm despite dire times in the automotive industry.

Ford's cash position

The Dearborn, Mich., carmaker says it has the cash to survive 2009 and reach the hoped-for economic turnaround.

There is good reason to suspect that Ford is not just whistling past the junkyard. Most immediately, Ford is not in danger of running out of money in the coming months. Two years ago, then-new Ford president and CEO Alan Mulally lined up $24 billion worth of financing, mortgaging the company’s name to build a war chest bigger than anyone thought would be needed, just in case.

That move now looks prescient, though it was primarily done because Ford ran out of money sooner than GM and Chrysler did. “In hindsight that was a very smart move by Mr. Mulally,” observed Tom Libby, senior director of industry analysis at J.D. Power and Associates. “It gives Ford an advantage financially.”

“I think Ford will be in excellent shape,” said Peter DeLorenzo, editor-in-chief of the Detroit insider Web site Autoextremist.com. “Mulally made the tough calls that the other CEOs refused to make — he understood that Ford had to get smaller before it could better — and Ford will be better positioned in the marketplace in the 2010-2011 time frame because of it.”
And to the notion that Ford was plain lucky on the timing of its loans? “Mulally may have lucked out on the financing deal, but then again you have to make your own luck in this business at times,” DeLorenzo said.

Remaking its product line

But in the longer term, Ford is building momentum as it remakes its product line into one that more closely reflects consumers’ new interests. “The main point we are trying to make to folks is that we have a plan that we want to execute,” said spokesman Mark Truby. “Our vision is to leverage the strength of Ford globally.”
That plan, which Mulally announced in 2006, is to use the well-regarded designs of its products from Europe and Asia in all markets, including the U.S. So the company is booting some of its big trucks out of U.S. factories to make room for cars like the all-new Fiesta subcompact. That car launched in Europe this year and should appear in U.S. dealers in fall of 2009. In contrast, GM’s just-announced global compact sedan, the Chevrolet Cruze, will now be delayed a year in the U.S. to help the company conserve its cash on hand.

Ford will import another small vehicle, the Transit Connect commercial minivan, giving it a fuel-efficient product to sell to urban delivery companies and small businesses. The recent plunge in gas prices highlights the danger of completely converting to small products for which Americans have so far demonstrated limited appetite, however.

“What we want to have is a balanced portfolio of vehicles,” Truby said. To that end, Ford recently announced it was recalling workers for a third shift at an assembly plant for its all-new 2009 F-150 pickup truck, It anticipates that its new design, falling gas prices and pent-up demand from commercial customers who have postponed necessary truck replacements will drive demand for its perennial best-seller.

Ford’s new F-150 appears strongly positioned to wrest sales away from the Dodge Ram based on the strength of its all-important specifications for towing and cargo-carrying.

Market expected to turn around

Chrysler’s recent woes and the very real possibility the Ram truck could be orphaned in the not-too-distant future could also steer buyers toward Ford, analysts said, because Ford, like Dodge, has a strong rural dealer network. “People are very leery about buying a Dodge truck right now,” said Joe Phillipi, president of AutoTrends Consulting.

Despite these advantages, Ford expects 2009 to be a tough year for truck sales because weakness in the housing market erodes the income of many of its truck customers who work in the building trades, explained F-150 marketing manager Doug Scott. But the market will turn around, he forecast. “We see the overall pickup business recovering to about two million units a year by around 2012,” he said. That would double today’s truck sales but would fall short of the previous high-water mark.

Paring its product line and number of brands has left Ford lean enough to survive tough times with the goal of emerging as a stronger core brand. “If you look at the industry’s best performers such as Toyota, Honda and BMW, they focus on their core brand and take care of that image,” said Truby. Ford’s goal is to similarly produce world-class products bearing the Ford name, rather than dividing its attention among many brands.
GM, in contrast, is struggling with too many brands and too many dealers. The industry’s changing conditions dictate that GM and other manufacturers must trim these excess brands, said Patrick Anderson, CEO of Anderson Economic Group. “We identified that there will be a wave of consolidations and outright shedding of non-performing operations,” he said.

© 2008 msnbc.com

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Cobrar

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Thanks for that post Dave. I also believe that to be the case, but am cautiously optimistic knowing we may be at the whim of legislators :eek sitting in Washington..