what a shame......

[Fast Freddy]

this is why i prefer my Springfield Armory M1A :wink it will not fail me when my life is on the line......

http://news.aol.com/article/m4-carbine-rifles-failed-us-troops-in/712817

 

[HHGT]

That's a shame. May they rest in peace.

 

[Empty Pockets]

'Harks back to the "M" series failures in 'Nam doesn't it...

 

[S592R]

you know I have heard this stuff for years. it comes down to one thing. TRAINING. The two major issues effect the m series platform (which also would effect HK, FNFAL and others) is 1. wet lubricant (which attracts huge amounts of crap into the weapon) and 2. Rate of fire. (overheating caused by prolonged "spray and pray")

using a dry lubricant stops the first problem in its tracks and proper training in target acquisition and proper use of suppression fire takes care of the second. One of the first things you are taught in any Spec Ops unit is to forget a majority of the stuff you saw in the movies. Proper care of your weapons is paramount when there are at best six of you against 100's. Also the radio is your largest weapon .. use it to call in other larger weapon platforms. But when it hits the fan use double tap on confirmed targets (and if it takes more than one tap to drop a target you need more training) and three second bursts to cover movement of your troops. M60 was a great suppression weapon ... fired that way.. firing in the manner that many gunners are trained today would just melt the barrel.

Let's not forget that the majority of troops in country (either) are national guard troops who from personal experience are undertrained for the job at hand. A tool is only as good as the craftsman who uses it. Troops are cheap ... weapons systems are expensive according to how the gov. spends its cash on both or either.

 

[usmcrebel]

you know I have heard this stuff for years. it comes down to one thing. TRAINING. The two major issues effect the m series platform (which also would effect HK, FNFAL and others) is 1. wet lubricant (which attracts huge amounts of crap into the weapon) and 2. Rate of fire. (overheating caused by prolonged "spray and pray")

using a dry lubricant stops the first problem in its tracks and proper training in target acquisition and proper use of suppression fire takes care of the second. One of the first things you are taught in any Spec Ops unit is to forget a majority of the stuff you saw in the movies. Proper care of your weapons is paramount when there are at best six of you against 100's. Also the radio is your largest weapon .. use it to call in other larger weapon platforms. But when it hits the fan use double tap on confirmed targets (and if it takes more than one tap to drop a target you need more training) and three second bursts to cover movement of your troops. M60 was a great suppression weapon ... fired that way.. firing in the manner that many gunners are trained today would just melt the barrel.
Let's not forget that the majority of troops in country (either) are national guard troops who from personal experience are undertrained for the job at hand. A tool is only as good as the craftsman who uses it. Troops are cheap ... weapons systems are expensive according to how the gov. spends its cash on both or either.

I am a marine reservist 0331 (machine gunner) and i assure you any belt fed weapon or magizine fed weapon IS NOT a supression tool. im am the #2 gunner out of my unit droping 3 (out of 119) shots @ 37yards in a black square no bigger than a nickel. with a good team leader and enough ammo i would feel comfident enough to take on 1k people... just like Johnny Cash i'd just walk the line.

I understand most military people are just trained on how to "point and click" but there are still some of us who take pride in the fact that 29k round out of a 240 or .50 cal is heavenly. We can make a symphony of death that has a more sweet sound that would make anyclassical composer ask "where is this music coming from?"

 

[Waldo]

I for one would like to read the specific details of each failure at Wanat before rushing to judgment. The failures came to light only from "a detailed study of the attack by a military historian." Who is this historian and what information does he have?

Show me the specific failure points of the weapons in questions. Don't give me innuendo and rumors of poor training or sub-standard weapons. If you fire 12 magazines through an M4 in 30 minutes, the weapon will get hot.

I could think of a few critical questions that author could have addressed. Is the M855 5.56 ammunition lethal enough when fired out of the 14.5" M4 barrel? Does the M4 produce more carbon fouling in the bolt carrier group when compared to the USMC issued M-16A4? Would a gas piston variant of the M4 keep the bolt carrier group cleaner and make the weapon more reliable? Where the failures mechanical or due to carbon fouling?

I'm not defending the M4, but the article reeks of exploitive journalism

Best Regards,
Waldo

 

[usmcrebel]

there are ton's of variables in this.
1)weapon heat
2)carbon buildup
3)magazine failures
4)dirt
5)sweat
6)heavy weapons IE not the POS 249 SAW (Shit and Worthless)

I can't count the number of times magazines have been a problem firing from an A4 much less the M4's I fired. the tension in the spring wouldn't be enough to feed the following round into the chamber properly.
Heat, hasn't been an issue until about round 200+ (solution: piss on the barrel or pour water on it works for everything else but smells aweful)
When the carbon from the powder decides it wants to stick in all the wrong places at the wrong time the only solution is more lube (as with other things). Sadly your not thinking about that when bullets are turning your hiding spot into swiss cheese, nor do you have time.
Sweat+dirt=mud...never been a good thing for any weapon. (save for the AK47)

My biggest issue is...who the hell sent them into a hostile situation with a SAW as their Support weapon, that is just a bullshit move. A 240 is a must when in terrian like that. It is a PITA to carry, But it could've saved lives. A properly set up gun team can have their weapon in place locked and loaded on target in SECONDS, and allow the fire to be drawn to them so the light infantry can advance and repel the enemy. Ideally you want 2 -3 gun teams per group you send out so that the enemey can NEVER know you are coming. talking guns will enable the Fire teams to shoot and scoot towards the enemy, and allow for continuous fire on a designated position.

 

[S592R]

Waldo and Rebel ... we three are taking this from a Marine point of view.

Waldo I do agree, I also would like to see the rest of the data and feel that the article reeks of journalism ... likely from one that has not ever been in a combat theater. Also I agree that the M4 is not the M16A4 ... and as such likely will have "issues". I for one am a proponent of a heavier round out of a heavier weapon. I have over 10k rounds thru my sabre defence m4 in 6.5 Grendel. Nice built weapon .. incredible round. Great for CQB and long range shots. Have registered simulated head shots at 800m with optics from the carbine variant with 16 inch barrel. Truly wish the Corps would look at this wildcat round for adoption and would recommend a SD weapon to anyone that is looking for a M variant. SD also is making the barrels for the .50 and others in the field.

Rebel ... my observations are from watching the local NG and AR units train pre deployment both in Arkansas and Ft. Leonard Wood. Weapons training for them is not as complete as I remember SOI to be. Let me also tell you that a m60 or SAW can be used as a suppression weapon we trained that in FR often ... used it in the field also in more places than I care to recount. It is HOW you use it. also how many you use per team. Also if memory serves me correct the article was talking directly about an Army unit's experience in the field. Doctrine is doctrine... Marines will never agree with the Army's and vice-versa.

I fall back on my statement that wet lubricant should NOT be used in a desert environment. Personal experience shows that to be correct ... on many many occasions. Weapon system is not the issue when the lubricant attracts every spec of crap within 2 clicks of your AO.

Carbon fouling has always been an issue with weapons. The gas tube system on the M series was something that Eugene Stoner often spoke about being a liability when improper powder was used. HK and Alexander arms both developed a push rod system that works awesome. HK on their 416 and Alexander for the M series (he sells an upper in 6.5 grendel and I have heard that he also chambers for the 5.56 now). But alas ... after firing 300-400 rounds in a short period of time the bolt is going to have to be cleaned. PERIOD. The M1 and M14 rarely saw that kind of sustained fire ... but even talking to my uncle (another FR Marine -vietnam) he stated that the M14 needed cleaning and was almost as "fickle" (his words not mine) as the original M16 when operated in SE. Asia during his two tours.

After looking at this for several years .. I do feel that training over comes most of these issues. Von Clauswitz wrote of the "fog of war" ... nothing will ever overcome that .. only training can limit its effect.

The unfortunate truth here is that when exchanging rounds with the enemy one must expect to take casualties. We don't like to think of that ... but generally speaking it is a statistical probability that one must expect a round to find its target occasionally. It is an unfortunate truth that men die in combat ... but it is also part of the job. The three of us being professionals (either active or inactive currently) need to agree on that and need to help the rest of the world understand that to be part of it. Maybe then citizens and politicians would take a longer thought before they gleefully agree to send troops into a situation where they are likely to pay that bill. Freedom is not free, but its only a word until you have something invested in it. IMHO.

 

[usmcrebel]

I can't pm yet, shoot me some info on the 6.5 setup please.

I know the USMC and Army will never agree on how things are done. USMC= Assault force ARMY= sustainment force.

I do know that hearing about the death of any service member breaks my heart. I would gladly fight beside any of them (as long as i am pulling the trigger ). Sadly due to some unforseen circumstances i won't be able to as my unit is deployed now, and i am stateside

 

[S592R]

shoot me an email