Track day-Goodyear Eagles vs. Hoosiers

[ChipBeck]

Gentlemen,

Perfect weather and a huge turn out made for a most enjoyable track day at Firebird International Raceway in Arizona today. Countless Ferraris, Lambos, Ford GTs, Cobras, Jaguars, Mustangs, and a whole bunch of other stuff got out to mix it up on Firebird's west track. I got to drive a Superformance GT40 for the first time. :biggrin My screaming yellow Ford GT was running like a scalded dog and with the exception of a Cobra blowing its engine and spilling oil all over the track nobody bent any metal and everybody had a great time. The most enlightening thing that came out of today's track session however was JBG running his red GT on stock Goodyear Eagles and then dismounting them and bolting on his new spare wheels with brand-new Hoosiers to compare the two back to back. Oh my god!! :eek The Ford GT is a completely different car with those race slicks mounted up. Several of us rode with him and the improvement in cornering grip, late braking ability, and acceleration without wheel spin is unbelievable. I stood by some of the corners and listened to Goodyear Eagle shod GTs squealing in protest and then saw John take the same corner considerably faster without so much as a chirp from his Hoosiers. Nothing could stay with that GT on those tires. Every one of us who saw it and experienced it today is ordering up a set this week. I know a lot has been written in previous posts about these tires. But I'm sure a lot of owners like me figured the difference would be minimal and paid little attention. But if you ever get a chance to experience it, it will blow you away. Think about this. I have driven many different Ford GTs with many different modifications. In my opinion, those street legal R6 Hoosier slicks resulted in a larger usable performance gain than a Whipple supercharger.

I must add that I would never drive them on anything but dry roads ,(I never drive my GT in the rain anyway), and once they're warmed up if you drive them on a gravel road the gravel sticks to the rubber and hurls small stones all over the place. :willy But keep them on dry clean pavement and they'll make you feel like Michael Schumacher. :banana:banana:banana

Chip

 

[mousecatcher]

In my opinion, those street legal R6 Hoosier slicks resulted in a larger usable performance gain than a Whipple supercharger.

Can you clarify if you are talking about R6 DOT tires or slicks? DOT tires are treaded. AFAIK, Hoosier does not make slicks in the R6 compound.

 

[cobrar1339]

The Nirvana of Traction.:thumbsup

Glad you got a chance to see it for yourself. Also very observant to notice the braking ability.

Ed Sims made me a believer that these were in fact, streetable when he drove some 300 miles to a track we met at. Ran 4-5 sessions on them and drove home on them. When he arrived I was anxious to see if they were full of pebbles. Nope, clean and ready to run. I fyou have good roads, no problem based on what I saw.

You will notice over time that they lose a margin of the super human grip. His had quite a few road and track miles on them as I recall. I tested the softness on them vs. the Goodyears & Nitto R2. They were about 20% softer than the Nitto R2's. When I got home I checked them against a fresh set of Hoosiers for the Vet. As I recall they were about 32% softer than the R2. Still a huge difference from the Goodyears. You will not go back if you like to drive the car hard.

 

[barondw]

They are streetable only in dry weather. So yes some one can drive them several hundred miles to and from a track event in complete dry weather and feel comfortable and safe.

But if the road is wet you will have a major traction problem. Would not recommend people using them on the street because of this. This is the same problem the kids have with their Mustangs. They put the slicks on, because its cool, and crash in wet or cold weather because there is a sudden lose of traction.

Thus if tracking would always suggest 2 sets of wheels and tires to maximize performance. You can still have fun with the stock tires, but as I posted previously several times look out for chunking treads.

This is a safety related issue don't put wourself at risk. It's cheaper to have a tire trailer than repairing your body.

:cheers

 

[B O N Y]

Running nonDOT tires on the street may jeopardize your insurance coverage.
Also, your legal exposure is wide open. All these internet posts on this site and many others makes it very hard for an owner involved in a suit to say he was unaware of the risks of running track tires on the street.

 

[JBG]

Trackday

First of all, many thanks to Team Jeff and Scott Harrington of the Van Horsen Group for organizing the trackday. With the variety of cars and the number of drivers, it's was a great event :thumbsup I never had the opportunity to experience any aftermarket tires on the FGT prior to this purchase. After a couple weeks of reading previous posts (thanks Ed), internet surfing and talking to some maufacturers....the Hoosiers appeared to be the choice. The Tire Rack had them in stock and could heat cycle the tires for $15/tire. IMO, having them cycle the tires was worth every penny. The stock Goodyears are good, but after mounting the new rubber, I'll never go on a track without the Hoosiers on all four corners. I have to agree 100% with Chip that the Hoosiers makes the FGT a completely different vehicle. I did notice that the engine temp was running about 10% higher with the Hoosiers. Does that seem to be the norm when running softer tires :confused

 

[barondw]

I did notice that the engine temp was running about 10% higher with the Hoosiers. Does that seem to be the norm when running softer tires :confused

Depends on the exhaust system, how your tune was done, add-ons, etc. I have not noticed any temp increase when running Hoosiers. Here is the East I have run on 70 degree days and 98 degree days.

You certainly are going to maintain a higher rpm with Hoosiers thus the engine is generating more heat and more ehat soak can occur. Again depends on the items I previously mentioned and how well air flows through the clam shell.

:cheers

 

[barondw]

Running nonDOT tires on the street may jeopardize your insurance coverage.
Also, your legal exposure is wide open. All these internet posts on this site and many others makes it very hard for an owner involved in a suit to say he was unaware of the risks of running track tires on the street.

Daniel

The Hoosiers are actually DOT rated but again in my opinion should not be used on the street. Just because a tire is DOT rated does not mean it is meant for normal street driving.

I absolutely agree with you comments concerning insurance coverage or the lack there off and no one can claim they did not know. I am also sure the selling dealer emphasizes that non DOT tires are not sor street usage.

:cheers

 

[JBG]

I have not noticed any temp increase when running Hoosiers. Here is the East I have run on 70 degree days and 98 degree days.

What engine temps are you running on those trackdays? I do have the stock exhaust. Could that be a contributing factor :confused

 

[cobrar1339]

As Barondw points out, you will be using more of the power band as you can get on the throttle sooner out of corners, reaching a higher rpm before your next braking zone. I would say more heat would be normal.

There has been a lot of discussion on the DOT hoosier. Some have even cut threads in them. They are by NO means all season tires. The ability to drive them on the street in ideal conditions is a plus for a short run to a local track, if you don't have a chase vehicle.

But one should be cautious of standing water along the way and cool temps until they warm up. I would not attempt to drive on these in anything less than ideal weather conditions.

Maybe I read it wrong, but you are more likely to chunk a Goodyear street tire at the track ( common ) than any race or extreme performance tire. The more the Goodyears are worn down the less chance of chunking a tire.

 

[roketman]

Having some experience here .I can state that they are street legal and are approved by the department of trasportation for street use.This also means that you would NOT have any issue with your insurance company .I do however agree that they are not the tire of choice if it rains .
AWESOME TIRES !! CHECK THE WEATHER BEFORE YOU GO OUT ON EM !!
CHECK OUT THE WEB SITE FOR MORE INFO.

 

[ChipBeck]

Don't tread on me.

Can you clarify if you are talking about R6 DOT tires or slicks? DOT tires are treaded. AFAIK, Hoosier does not make slicks in the R6 compound.

Mousecatcher,

I am talking about the R6 DOT tires. The only tread these tires contain are two shallow rings running around the circumference of the tire. I suppose that qualifies as tread to make these tires street legal but for all intents and purposes they are slicks. It is my understanding that Hoosier makes a softer compound slick that will fit the GT that is not street legal, has even better grip, and will wear out much sooner. There was another GT running yesterday on 18 inch Goodyear Eagle race tires that were a very soft compound. After a short session on the track the very soft compound tires were covered with molten robber blobs and appeared to pick up much more debris. The Goodyears also required purchasing some really cool looking 18 inch rear rims along with 18 inch fronts to match. Please realize my comments are the impressions of someone with no previous experience with race tires and I am certainly not an expert. Inasmuch as someone may be interested in a GT owners first impression, (blown away), then this post may be of some value. Two additional comments. 1. I examined the side wall of these tires and they are DOT rated and street legal. In addition to the benefit of being able to drive them on the street occasionally when weather permits, the harder R6 (compared to the R2s or Goodyears) compound appeared to pick up and throw less debris and certainly seemed like it would be a longer lasting tire while still offering phenomenal grip. 2. Even traveling at higher speeds with John driving I felt safer and more secure on the track with the Hoosiers. I often felt I was on the ragged edge with the stock Goodyear Eagles dealing with both oversteer and understeer at the limits. The Hoosiers stayed planted at all times.

There you have it, the impressions of an enthusiast with a whole hour's worth of experience. :biggrin

Chip

 

[mousecatcher]

Having some experience here .I can state that they are street legal and are approved by the department of trasportation for street use.This also means that you would NOT have any issue with your insurance company.

i would bet $5 on it, but i wouldn't bet $170k on it, much less someone ELSE's life. Hoosier is VERY explicit, these tires are NOT SAFE for highway (meaning public road, so including neighborhood streets) use. since insurance companies are in the business of NOT paying out claims, if they learn that the cause of an accident was a hoosier tire blow out, who knows what they will say. i could see them winning in court. unfortunately hoosier doesn't attach any qualifiers to their statement of non-safe use, such as "due to wet weather traction" or "due to kicking rocks up to the car behind you", so while they may indeed be safe, they are not going to indemnify you.

that said, i know lots of people that drive them to the track and back. Ed Sims might not be the best example, he drives goodyear *slicks* (non-DOT) around.

if you must drive them to the track, there are other tire choices, maybe not quite as good as the R6s but still way better than the GY stock street tires, e.g. Nitto Invo.

 

[mousecatcher]

The Hoosiers stayed planted at all times.

time to kick it up a notch. :biggrin

 

[GERMANORACING]

If you don't think the Hoosiers should be run on the street what tire would be the next best thing to the Hoosiers for street/track

Thanks

 

[B O N Y]

Pirelli or Michlien PS2's

 

[B O N Y]

i would bet $5 on it, but i wouldn't bet $170k on it, much less someone ELSE's life. Hoosier is VERY explicit, these tires are NOT SAFE for highway (meaning public road, so including neighborhood streets) use. since insurance companies are in the business of NOT paying out claims, if they learn that the cause of an accident was a hoosier tire blow out, who knows what they will say. i could see them winning in court. unfortunately hoosier doesn't attach any qualifiers to their statement of non-safe use, such as "due to wet weather traction" or "due to kicking rocks up to the car behind you", so while they may indeed be safe, they are not going to indemnify you.

that said, i know lots of people that drive them to the track and back. Ed Sims might not be the best example, he drives goodyear *slicks* (non-DOT) around.

if you must drive them to the track, there are other tire choices, maybe not quite as good as the R6s but still way better than the GY stock street tires, e.g. Nitto Invo.

Very simple... if there will be a suit, there will be discovery. One of the questions will be what car clubs and forums do you belong to and visit.
From there the fun starts....

 

[ChipBeck]

DOT certified for?

Hoosier is VERY explicit, these tires are NOT SAFE for highway (meaning public road, so including neighborhood streets) use.

Gentlemen,

If this is the case, why on earth would Hoosier go through the time and trouble to have these tires DOT certified for road use? Perhaps there are some race series that require DOT certified street legal tires. On the side walls the temperature rating is "A" and the traction rating is "C" (I'm sure because of poor wet weather traction). If Hoosier never wanted these tires used on the street and consider them unsafe for highway use, yet they jumped through the hoops necessary to get them DOT certified as legal for road use, they are committing liability suicide. During my tenure as an automobile dealer I was a cofounder of the Trans City Life, accident, casualty, and collision insurance company. In addition I was a licensed insurance broker for 20 years. In my experience there is no way on God's green earth that an insurance company could deny a claim based upon the failure of a tire that was certified for "use on public roads" by the United States Department of Transportation because someone actually "used them on a public road". Perhaps these tires should not be used on the street, I certainly don't have the expertise regarding tire design to render an opinion. But I do have experience as co-owner of a privately held liability insurance company and I'd bet $1000 to a dime that no insurance company could successfully deny a claim because a policyholder used any appropriately sized and weight rated DOT approved tire. Aside from that issue, has anybody ever had one of these tires blow out while using them on the street? If it happens a lot more often than on normal street tires, that would be reason enough to limit one's use of them to the track.

Chip

 

[AZGT]

Agree with Chip and JBG about the traction difference. Got out of mine, got in JBG's car. Went through some turns that I know I would have lost it in mine, he just stepped on the gas. Not one instance of wanting to come around.

Obviously for track use, a track tire is a must - what a difference.

I think they may be a little much for the street (they did pick up a lot of crap - the Goodyears looked like they picked up even more crap, but they sure looked killer on the car). I would be willing to sacrifice a little wear for a little more traction - I think improved traction under acceleration would be a number one add on safety feature - could help prevent the "pole dance" that GTs seem to like to do.

Like many others, I am about ready for tires (well, really am ready, but my Goodyears right now make good "racing slicks"). I think it is time to look at the Pirelli or Michlien PS2's.

Would like to maybe even go a little wider in the rear (boy, here come the jokes :biggrin).

 

[BlackICE]

Chip, the Hoosiers are DOT approved for the reason you stated, some racing series mandate DOT approved tires. Also you are correct that the traction rating is for wet traction. Is the tire safe for the street? IMHO (not legal opinion) YES, only on dry roads without major road hazards. However, they shouldn't be used on the street even under ideal conditions, because although they are DOT legal from the factory with tread depth at 5/32", after very little use, the "tread" depth would soon be less than the legal limit, thus no longer street legal. The tires have much more life on the track where tread depth is not an issue. IMHO the tread is there only to satisfy DOT requirements and serves no other purpose.

4.5/32" new -> 4/32" CA Law -> 2/32" DOT legal

Now for us in CA you may only get 500 miles if you drive easy before you are out of spec! One burnout and you are out of spec!


From Tire Rack
Beginning with a tread depth of 4.5/32", they will not require shaving for competition, however they will benefit from heat cycling before competition to enhance wear and provide more consistent performance.

CA laws

(1) One thirty-second (1/32) of an inch tread depth in any two adjacent grooves at any location of the tire, except as provided in paragraphs (2) and (3).
(2) Four thirty-second (4/32) of an inch tread depth at all points in all major grooves on a tire on the steering axle of any motor vehicle specified in Section 34500, and two thirty-second (2/32) of an inch tread depth at all points in all major grooves on all other tires on the axles of these vehicles.


http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/roadinfo/vctires.htm

DOT specs

2/32"