OIL SEPERATOR CAN PCV

[twobjshelbys]

(I think the argument changes when you talk about bigger boost from Whipples or turbos as the added pressures will definitely increase blow-by and it *may* get it into the range where you want to be pro-active about it.)

This is it in a nutshell. If you have a big HP blower and track the car alot, you might want one of these. Otherwise it's a solution looking for a problem. People in the Mustang GT500 space got all twitterpated about anything in it and went looking for something to fix when nothing was broken.

Also, the math about how much is actually involved is that the "system" can easily absorb a few "drops". That is the whole purpose of PCV system!!!!

 

[Kingman]

My pleasure. I can offer a subscription plan for any of the above. Just a matter of how much wisdom you can absorb.

As an advocate, why don't you enlighten us on how much "oil" you catch across what mileage interval?

I have to ask.....when did your endorsement of the need wane?

I ask because I actually purchased the Guyett product twice. I returned their solution the first time based upon the discussion you and I had regarding YOUR 'soon to be available' Oil Separator. You may recall how passionate you were about the superiority of your proposed solution at the time. I am currently in DC on travel and don't have access to my records, though I recall after waiting on you for about a year without any response back, I went back to Guyett and re-purchased theirs. Hey.....you flaked. It happens.

I breathlessly await your posting of the exhaustive research you've invested solving this question. You mentioned it, so it must be real.

I am not an 'expert', and never professed to be. I was simply providing the same succinct words to my Forum peer that you used when I asked for your guidance several years back. May I suggest that you provide a thermometer as it relates to any of your future pronouncements. Questioning you, the 'expert', is obviously not allowed, so a gauge on your certainty about a topic, at any given time, would be helpful.

It now appears that your original passion for an Oil Separator was only ~25/75 at best back then ehhh!?

 

[Kingman]

BTW Kendall - I checked my Forum PM's and noticed that I still had our online conversation from 2011. In case your memory escapes you..............

05-08-2011, 06:37 AM




nota4re




nota4re is offline gt owner & supporting vendor
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Join Date:Feb 2006Posts:3,370




Default Re: Oil Separator



Hi Herb,

I can't comment on the other people's product. I only know that we will have absolutely the best catch can on the market. Simply stated, we are adapting the best can for mounting in the GT. It will likely be pricier than other solution because the machining and quality of components is different.

You can read about it here:

http://www.42draftdesigns.com/catego...catchcans.html



Go to www.cooltechllc.com to see some "cool" GT products!

 

[nota4re]

Yes, Herb, in 2010-2011 we were researching catch can applications for the GT. Catch cans themselves are not created equal. The efficiency of the catch can (what percentage of the total blow-by can they actually capture) varies among designs and most, if not all, of the passive designs are somewhere in the 40-60% range as I recall the test data that we had obtained. OEMs are now developing "active" separators with their larger R&D budgets and these are already on several production vehicles (my current Ram EcoDiesel has one, as an example). In addition to efficiency, the second thing we were looking at for the GT is integration into the vehicle - including plug and play hook-up and functional/aesthetic mounting locations. We were largely ready to go. With any new product, you also need some kind of business plan. What was going to be our addressable market? It was becoming increasingly apparent to us through testing and additional research that OEM & pulley/tune versions of the Ford GT really didn't have any kind of measurable problem with blow-by. (See my post #20 in this thread.) So, we could have one the more efficient (passive) separators, it would be pretty and presumably easy to install..... but if it wasn't solving a problem, how would I compel people to buy it? As I referenced, the potential market of catch-cans is limited to the more highly modified GTs and typically the guys doing these high-boost applications already had their own solution for increased blow-by.

At the end of the day, we never brought a product to market. Do we have regrets? None.

So, not sure where all of the angst is coming from. Perhaps your opinion is that the oil separators are absolutely necessary. Hell, allegedly you have one installed and have some experience with it and I would hope that is reinforcing your opinion. Do share your experience!

Our experience is that 1/3 of a cup across 5000 miles might even be on the high side of what might be captured - and even at that, our opinion is that it is insignificant - and it has no negative contribution to either the performance or longevity of the engine or its components (SC, intercooler, etc.).

Feel free to disagree. Refute the data that I have offered or provide a different perspective. It won't be the first time I have been wrong about something.

 

[DakotaGT]

Honest question here (don't want to get in the middle of the spat, but...) - how much oil getting into the supercharger/intercooler/ultimately engine intake mixture does it take to affect the octane level? It has been my understanding that one consequence of "blow by" oil getting into the intake is a lowering of the octane rating of the fuel mixture by the time it sees combustion. If even a miniscule amount of oil entering the intake path is all it takes to throw off the safety parameters of a tune, then perhaps ANYBODY running even just a pulley/tune or even just a tune should pay attention to this discussion. If you have an oil separator, and you find that you are accumulating ANY oil (how much does it take to be "significant" is the question here), I would consider it a worthwhile thing to have. For me anyway, it would provide peace of mind. Don't need/want ANY oil getting in there.

I'll throw this in here, too: last year, I did a full rebuild of my 2007 GT500 engine, due to piston damage on cylinders 5 and 7. Suspected cause of failure? Detonation due to inadequate fuel octane with the given tune/timing. It was correctly tuned for 91 premium, and that's all I used, but I have to wonder if this issue came into play. Just to mitigate any risks I could, I now run an oil separator on that engine, and don't really collect much in it, but it didn't cost too much and makes me feel better having it. Of course, I couldn't resist a few other upgrades, since I had a custom L&M shortblock done instead of rebuilding the original block. Love the way it sounds with my new cams!

 

[nota4re]

You ask a good question, DakotaGT, and I wish I was smart enough to know the answer. I too have heard that "too much" oil vapor coming in through the intake can effectively lower the octane level. I'm not sure at what percentage this occurs.

You can read through the "math" I posted in Post #20. There IS (at least) one flaw in the logic insofar that I am looking at this through an "average" lens. The reality is that when you place the highest demands on the engine (highest boost), that is when blow-by sharply increases and in theory could get to the point of concern that you are raising.

 

[HPGT]

?

 

[twobjshelbys]

Honest question here (don't want to get in the middle of the spat, but...) - how much oil getting into the supercharger/intercooler/ultimately engine intake mixture does it take to affect the octane level? It has been my understanding that one consequence of "blow by" oil getting into the intake is a lowering of the octane rating of the fuel mixture by the time it sees combustion. If even a miniscule amount of oil entering the intake path is all it takes to throw off the safety parameters of a tune, then perhaps ANYBODY running even just a pulley/tune or even just a tune should pay attention to this discussion. If you have an oil separator, and you find that you are accumulating ANY oil (how much does it take to be "significant" is the question here), I would consider it a worthwhile thing to have. For me anyway, it would provide peace of mind. Don't need/want ANY oil getting in there.

I think you pretty much answered your own question. The amount of blow by in an engine that doesn't have any other issues is miniscule, and built in to the operational characteristics. Like I said, I had the supercharger off my GT at about 2000 miles and the intercooler was bone dry. There was a little collected on one corner of the gasket area (you can see it in the pics above). There was none on the bottom portion of the SC body. I haven't had reason to pull it off again but as I stated earlier, based on my experience with my Mustang which did have a catch can, there wasn't enough in it to justify the angst that seems to be associated with these devices.

I'll throw this in here, too: last year, I did a full rebuild of my 2007 GT500 engine, due to piston damage on cylinders 5 and 7. Suspected cause of failure? Detonation due to inadequate fuel octane with the given tune/timing. It was correctly tuned for 91 premium, and that's all I used, but I have to wonder if this issue came into play. Just to mitigate any risks I could, I now run an oil separator on that engine, and don't really collect much in it, but it didn't cost too much and makes me feel better having it. Of course, I couldn't resist a few other upgrades, since I had a custom L&M shortblock done instead of rebuilding the original block. Love the way it sounds with my new cams!

Was your GT500 a factory tune or a custom tune? Simply stated, there really isn't enough oil to reduce the octane enough to be a concern, and if you do, there are other bigger problems that need to be fixed that won't be remedied by catching the oil (you'd really better figure out where it's coming from and fix that.)

And I'll restate the logic from my knoweldgeable engine guy: If it were necessary for long term reliability, don't you think Ford would have included it on the engine to begin with? (Or Chevy or Dodge or....)

As I mentioned earlier, the conditions change greatly if you are tracking the car frequently.

 

[DakotaGT]

I think you pretty much answered your own question. The amount of blow by in an engine that doesn't have any other issues is miniscule, and built in to the operational characteristics. Like I said, I had the supercharger off my GT at about 2000 miles and the intercooler was bone dry. There was a little collected on one corner of the gasket area (you can see it in the pics above). There was none on the bottom portion of the SC body. I haven't had reason to pull it off again but as I stated earlier, based on my experience with my Mustang which did have a catch can, there wasn't enough in it to justify the angst that seems to be associated with these devices.



Was your GT500 a factory tune or a custom tune? Simply stated, there really isn't enough oil to reduce the octane enough to be a concern, and if you do, there are other bigger problems that need to be fixed that won't be remedied by catching the oil (you'd really better figure out where it's coming from and fix that.)

And I'll restate the logic from my knoweldgeable engine guy: If it were necessary for long term reliability, don't you think Ford would have included it on the engine to begin with? (Or Chevy or Dodge or....)

As I mentioned earlier, the conditions change greatly if you are tracking the car frequently.

I get where you are coming from Tony, but like I said- if you are running ANY modifications, even just a tune where the timing has been jacked up some (and hence typically increasing risk of detonation unless you compensate with adequate octane), you need to pay close attention to such things. Engine rebuilds are inconvenient and expensive. But to your point, I agree- factory engineered, factory-tuned engines likely don't need them. Yes, my GT500 engine was modified similarly to my Ford GT engine- whipple blower, injectors, boost a pump, tune, etc.

By the way, I think a buddy of mine has a former car of yours- did you own a black/red Shelby GT/CS convertible, Barrett-Jackson edition?

 

[twobjshelbys]

By the way, I think a buddy of mine has a former car of yours- did you own a black/red Shelby GT/CS convertible, Barrett-Jackson edition?

Yes, I had two of them. We donated one at Barrett Jackson (the 5-speed) to the Shelby Foundation. The second one (automatic) was sold to a private party, then bought at Florida BJ by the lady collector from somewhere around there (her name escapes me : Edit: Ele Chesney ), and she immediately gave the car to Craig Jackson for sale at another charity auction for his T-Gen foundation. It was then bought by Rick Hendricks (NASCAR), and I think eventually he sold it through one of his dealerships.

Which one does he have? Is it in Sioux Falls too? My sister lives there.

Those were the Mustangs I am referring to in this topic. Both had Kenne Bell supercharges and their kit included the catch-can. I never drove the manual (it went straight to auction) but the auto had some very spiritied sessions and never accumulated more than a trace in it.

 

[twobjshelbys]

I get where you are coming from Tony, but like I said- if you are running ANY modifications, even just a tune where the timing has been jacked up some (and hence typically increasing risk of detonation unless you compensate with adequate octane), you need to pay close attention to such things. Engine rebuilds are inconvenient and expensive. But to your point, I agree- factory engineered, factory-tuned engines likely don't need them. Yes, my GT500 engine was modified similarly to my Ford GT engine- whipple blower, injectors, boost a pump, tune, etc.

Once again I'll go back to the base design. If there were problems with oil blow by in the PCV system significantly reducing octane and causing problems with a normally operating engine, you'd hear about stock engines blowing up all over the place. The purpose of the PCV is to capture that material and re-use it.

In the case of a supercharger intercooler, I'd be much more concerned about the intercooler getting "clogged" and reducing air flow (not octane). The mixture of that oil any dust getting past the air cleaner might impact things, but like I said, I've never seen the intercooler get any collection.

 

[B.M.F.]

Once again I'll go back to the base design. If there were problems with oil blow by in the PCV system significantly reducing octane and causing problems with a normally operating engine, you'd hear about stock engines blowing up all over the place. The purpose of the PCV is to capture that material and re-use it.

In the case of a supercharger intercooler, I'd be much more concerned about the intercooler getting "clogged" and reducing air flow (not octane). The mixture of that oil any dust getting past the air cleaner might impact things, but like I said, I've never seen the intercooler get any collection.

oil will get past the innercooler and sit at the bottom of the intake and then get sucked back up by the hose in lower plenum back threw rotors again.

 

[B.M.F.]

98% of the guys who drive their GT's will never experience an issue from the stock pcv lines and or system. Only the guys with hard spun stock blowers, large blowers, built motors and turbos would need a catch system or guys who drive like me.. One other way is if it had a crap ton of miles with some hard abuse and wear. So this is really a non issue for all but 2% of the people here.

 

[2112]

And I'll restate the logic from my knoweldgeable engine guy: If it were necessary for long term reliability, don't you think Ford would have included it on the engine to begin with? .

I don't.

They had a budget to live within. They had a pricepoint they had to meet and they were under huge time constraints.

They could not have addressed every possible issue. Case in Point, the original tires and lack of adjustable coil-overs.

 

[Sinovac]

Not that it's relevant to the oil separator issue, but I would never assume something is unnecessary just because the OEM omitted it from the original design. Value engineering anyone?

 

[twobjshelbys]

I don't.

They had a budget to live within. They had a pricepoint they had to meet and they were under huge time constraints.

They could not have addressed every possible issue. Case in Point, the original tires and lack of adjustable coil-overs.

I disagree. The entire line of GT500s have the same or more horsepower as the FGT and never had a catch can.

 

[twobjshelbys]

98% of the guys who drive their GT's will never experience an issue from the stock pcv lines and or system. Only the guys with hard spun stock blowers, large blowers, built motors and turbos would need a catch system or guys who drive like me.. One other way is if it had a crap ton of miles with some hard abuse and wear. So this is really a non issue for all but 2% of the people here.

Agree. I said the same thing.

 

[2112]

I disagree. The entire line of GT500s have the same or more horsepower as the FGT and never had a catch can.

And a fair number of them have have engines that have been hurt.

 

[twobjshelbys]

And a fair number of them have have engines that have been hurt.

Agreed. As a counter argument, noone has ever, in person or in the many car forums I'm active in, offered proof that their engine was saved by one.

 

[B.M.F.]

Agreed. As a counter argument, noone has ever, in person or in the many car forums I'm active in, offered proof that their engine was saved by one.

Fact! If you nip a ring land and introduce oil into the pcv system the catch can is only gonna save you for a few seconds. Detonation is what has killed gt 500 motors. NOT the lack of a catch can. While it is smart for a Gt500/gt motor on the ragged edge stock on pump gas as any extra oil could cause detonation and if detonation happens or when it happens the least amount of oil in the chamber at the point would be better than even a little more oil.