Nissan = Full of it

[dbk]

Nissan GTR
Power: 480hp and 430tq
Curb Weight: 3828
Brembos all around
DSG gearbox

Sounds good.

Let's compare that with some other cars

Corvette C6 Z06
Power: 505hp and 485tq
Curb Weight: 3130
RWD

Porsche 997 Twin Turbo
Power: 480hp and 460tq
Curb Weight: 3494
AWD

Ferrari 599
Power: 611hp and 448 tq
Curb Weight: 3722lbs
RWD

Now let's compare their Nurburgring lap times

Ferrari 599: 7:47 seconds
Corvette C6 Z06: 7:42.9 seconds
Porsche 911 Turbo: 7:42 seconds
and
Nissan GTR: 7:38 seconds.

Buuuuuuuuuulllllllllllshit. Power to weight isn't everything at a track. Certainly not. Especially not a huge track like the Nurburgring. But if a 480hp 3828 pound GTR can lap the track 5 seconds faster than a 505hp 3130 pound Corvette that borrows from it's Le Mans-dominating C6R brother, that bitch better be have a magical teleportation gear. We're talking 700 pounds heavier and 25hp/55tq less powerful.

Normally I wouldn't be as doubting, but we're talking about the same Nissan that told people the 600hp/3600 pound Nismo Z-tune would run 10.06 in the quarter and that the R34 would turn 7:59 at the ring only to have German rags try for themselves that couldn't even get under 8:30s. Give me a break.

I'm sure it's a great car, but I'll believe this car is substantially faster than a C6 Z06 when pigs not only fly, but open their own airline to shuttle leprechauns between Tokyo and France.

Am I crazy? I don't doubt they ran the tire, but if they did, it was definitely on race rubber and most likely with the power cranked way higher than 480hp.

 

[Cyclenirvana]

Yeah...I read about this recently and could not believe what I was reading! Interesting post...thanks for the data.

 

[B O N Y]

your moderator is watching you guys


how many FGT's do you really think have been badly damaged (includes stone chips) etc.

 

[Kayvan]

That car is getting ginourmous press

 

[Kirby Vieira]

The GT-R is a special car for sure, but to DBK's point, why do mfgr's feel the need to BS a knowledgeable buying public. The current Autoweek has an article on one of the 3 prototypes driven by their writers. These prototypes were put into the hands of writers for one reason - hype, to create demand and sell cars beginning at the introduction next May or June. Autoweek mostly quotes Nissan but says the car feels like it could live up to Nissan's claims. The article quotes 0-60 in 3.5 which with all wheel drive might be possible with the right driver and right launch with a juiced prototype on the right track. They quote .2 sec paddle shifts, and a quarter mile time of 11.7 The GTR was driven back to back with a Turbo Porsche. Once spooled up, the Porsche has more getty-up, but the GT-R had less lag, was easier to handle, flatter and more stable. At the Nurburgring they said the GT-R could do anywhere from 7:44 on up, with most laps coming between 7:55 and 7:58. IMO, this car seem to be alot like the Audi R8, particularly the hyped numbers which the production cars have not been able to support, except the GT-R will be a much better value if priced as predicted in the low 70's. It has some great technology, and at the end of the day, it's another foreign car that will capture lots of sales in the US while more and more Americans get laid off at US car manufacturers. :frown:thumbsdow:frown

 

[kjslider]

I would be surprised if Nissan is "cooking the books" any more than the other manufacturers do.

If the GT-R is as easily "modable" as the current Skyline(or GT for that matter) and can lose alot of weight, say about 300 to 400 lbs, the car will have insane track abilities.

Can everyone say RICE?

 

[S592R]

I don't know ... I'm with DBk on this one. too much weight .. not enough power to pull it ... data is data and it usually correlates directly.

The ring is a tricky place to run and from the short time that I was there .... I can only imagine the stones that it takes to run any car that fast on some place so prone to kill you ... or seemingly willing to. IMHO any person that can run a car in that range there is an incredible driver and any car that can do it is a true "ring tool".

Four wheel drive does help a car in many areas but at the end of the day ... there is a penalty to pay for carrying the extra lbs. Chapman had one thing dead on right ... fast through lightness. I would love to see a true sportscar in the sub 2200 range that had the power that the nissan has. That truly would be something fun to drive.

S

 

[AZTungsten]

I'm sure it's a great car, but I'll believe this car is substantially faster than a C6 Z06 when pigs not only fly, but open their own airline to shuttle leprechauns between Tokyo and France.

:lol

 

[kjslider]

Four wheel drive does help a car in many areas but at the end of the day ... there is a penalty to pay for carrying the extra lbs.

S

A couple years ago Mario Andretti was conducting a test for a magazine, I think Road and Track, comparing the Porsche C4 and C2.

He commented that he could get a faster lap out of the C2, due to it's lower weight (and his skill and ability to manage a rear drive car) but thought that he would win a race in the C4, despite its heft, due to better tire management.

 

[Automotive8r]

your moderator is watching you guys

 

[B O N Y]

You photoshopped my beard off

 

[S592R]

A couple years ago Mario Andretti was conducting a test for a magazine, I think Road and Track, comparing the Porsche C4 and C2.

He commented that he could get a faster lap out of the C2, due to it's lower weight (and his skill and ability to manage a rear drive car) but thought that he would win a race in the C4, despite its heft, due to better tire management.

Agreed that Mario Andretti feels that he could be quicker in a race with that system. But my point is more about Mass.

More than a few months ago I read an article about how much weight cars keep gaining year after year. If you look at DBK's post you can clearly see that. At the end of the day no amount of technology is going to offset the laws of physics. Simply put no 400 lbs man is ever going to out run a 200 lbs man in a sprint or marathon even if they are of equal health, age and all other aspects other than weight. It takes more energy to get mass moving, more to get it to change direction and more to get it to stop. The effectiveness of controlling that all comes into play. No matter what system, no matter what technology... when you keep adding pounds without adding a appropriate amount of power to offset it ... your not going to get faster.

My lotus is less than 2000 pounds with me in it and makes 170 rwhp. My Gt is 3415 with me in it and makes 580 rwph. Yet on a small track like Hallett Oklahoma on street tires its easier to run a 1:34 lap in the Lotus. Why? the mass of the lotus is easier to control and that brings confidence. Confidence equals speed. See it every time we go to the track. We just call it seat time.

I have been fortunate to run "the ring". Did it a few months ago. That track is long, has huge elevation changes, tons of turns, and there is no where to run off at. There are several places that just feel like they where built just to to kill you. It was in one part nirvana and the other part Hell. In many ways its not one big track but more like a bunch of small, twisty country roads all connected together. I ran it in a Lotus 7 knock off .... lightweight, quick but not powerful yet was constantly running down a Ferrari Challenge Stradale. Why? being able to keep a car where I wanted it to be is my best guess. From that experience I just do not see how the Nissan can go faster when at every turn its mass is pulling it in places that you do not want it to go. Unless Nissan is running on tires built by superglue I just can not see it from my rather humbling experience there.

Remember that we are talking about 4 wheeled semi-guided missiles here. The trick is to keep them more guided ... than semi-guided and that is where driver's skill will always prevail. So that takes us right back to Mr. Andretti. :biggrin Can he take a C2 around quicker than a C4? Well yeah! But can Nissan build a car of the quality of the C4 while breaking the laws of physics? It would be cool if they could .... but I think I will stay in the box with Albert Einstein until shown otherwise.

 

[Empty Pockets]

This new Nissan is suppose to be awfully w-i-d-e too ... like 2 full inches wider than a 'Vette. THAT would help it a lot as far as getting it's extra mass around corners (and in the "confidence" factor), but that's about all it would help. 'Still need lots more h.p. & torque to MOVE the extra mass ... and brakes the size of trash can lids to stop it.

What I just don't understand is; why Nissan didn't go the V-8 route with this new ride? In the "mind games" dept, it would have been a BIG 'plus'. (Especially considering it's estimated sticker price.)

 

[kjslider]

Good post and I agree with all your points.^

I think the weight difference between the Porsche 2 and 4 wheel drive cars is something like 200 lbs. Roughly.

I'm in the camp that would, in most instances, take the weight penalty(200 lbs. or so) to gain the traction benefits of all wheel drive. Then again, I'm a hack driver that likes to go fast. On the track that is:wink

Speaking of Lotus, what great little cars. I met ChrisA from our forum the other day and he was thinking about getting a track car and is considering a Exige. I've never driven one but own a couple Caterhams/Lotuses. I've had a blast tracking the little beasts but suggested he look into getting a Mitsubishi Evolution. Mostly due to the safety factor.

I've tracked both cars a bit. Both are fun and relatively quick especially on tight tracks. Two fun cars with polar opposite design strategies yet each acheive their ultimate goal.

My Evo weighs just under 3000 lbs but puts 450hp to the ground(running 315 on all corners) and displaces as much air as a bus. I have a Caterham that weighs just under 1400 lbs and makes 250hp(thanks COSWORTH). Which car is faster? I really don't know.

 

[B O N Y]

As I get older, 60 on the 31st, I appreciate how the reflexes and vision change. Not for the better. Safety becomes a major concern. I had a very close call at California Speedway in a Cobra. That car will never ever go back on the track with me behind the wheel.

I would choose the Evo over the Lotus 7. To me the perfect track car is a Cup car, and with the change in Nascar rules I think now is the last time one will be able to buy them at a reasonable price.

 

[S592R]

To me the perfect track car is a Cup car, and with the change in Nascar rules I think now is the last time one will be able to buy them at a reasonable price.

REALLY? That comment "the perfect track car" from you shocked me. Can you elaborate?

thank you
S

 

[Fast Freddy]

i don't know much about this car but gearing and 4wd and other factors can make a car faster than what the power to weight ratio tells you. there have been tremendous technological advancements made in transmissions and traction control systems lately. with that said i bet it has way more horsepower than what they claim. so its underated. the horsepower figure that they give is probably at the wheels and not the crank. as far as the weight goes, it does look heavy to me.

i look forward to racing one of these with my viper on a short track road course someday. if its not faster than a C6 Z06 i am gonna rape it

 

[FordGTGuy]

The Shelby Cobra GT-500 is 3920 pounds and produces 500 bhp and 480 tq but its not running a 7:50 on Nurburg anytime soon.

 

[Kern44]

The time does seem fishy, however there's many variables you have to take account for driver, weather, ext. For me to belive the time I need to see the same conditions (driver, weather) for each car time.

 

[Kingman]

You are certainly not implying that a car company or periodical would play loose with the truth are you? :bs

GTO vs. GTO: Car and Driver, March 1964
http://www.web-cars.com/gto/c-d_pf-gto.php

Nissan GTR
Power: 480hp and 430tq
Curb Weight: 3828
Brembos all around
DSG gearbox

Sounds good.

Let's compare that with some other cars

Corvette C6 Z06
Power: 505hp and 485tq
Curb Weight: 3130
RWD

Porsche 997 Twin Turbo
Power: 480hp and 460tq
Curb Weight: 3494
AWD

Ferrari 599
Power: 611hp and 448 tq
Curb Weight: 3722lbs
RWD

Now let's compare their Nurburgring lap times

Ferrari 599: 7:47 seconds
Corvette C6 Z06: 7:42.9 seconds
Porsche 911 Turbo: 7:42 seconds
and
Nissan GTR: 7:38 seconds.

Buuuuuuuuuulllllllllllshit. Power to weight isn't everything at a track. Certainly not. Especially not a huge track like the Nurburgring. But if a 480hp 3828 pound GTR can lap the track 5 seconds faster than a 505hp 3130 pound Corvette that borrows from it's Le Mans-dominating C6R brother, that bitch better be have a magical teleportation gear. We're talking 700 pounds heavier and 25hp/55tq less powerful.

Normally I wouldn't be as doubting, but we're talking about the same Nissan that told people the 600hp/3600 pound Nismo Z-tune would run 10.06 in the quarter and that the R34 would turn 7:59 at the ring only to have German rags try for themselves that couldn't even get under 8:30s. Give me a break.

I'm sure it's a great car, but I'll believe this car is substantially faster than a C6 Z06 when pigs not only fly, but open their own airline to shuttle leprechauns between Tokyo and France.

Am I crazy? I don't doubt they ran the tire, but if they did, it was definitely on race rubber and most likely with the power cranked way higher than 480hp.