Yesterday, one of our customers (Greg Lutz) and I had an initial meeting at NHRA headquarters in Glendora, CA, with a couple of their tech staff regarding roll bar requirements, etc., and the Ford GT. Greg was kind enough to bring his GT over there to show them the general structure, etc. We are lobbying NHRA to see if we can get permission to run these cars down to 10.00 flat "as is" with no additional roll bars installed (normally required at 11.49). Obvioulsy, there are issues (liability fears of course, and also favoritism toward the GT instead of the Vette, Viper, etc.) but we are making inroads. The GT tub is so unique that we may be able to pull this off, who knows? We will keep everyone abrest of develoments as we go along. We may be able to get an 11.00 exemption to start with, we shall see what we shall see. Thanks Greg for the use of the car and also your time. Unfortunately for Greg, his GT already runs too quick, but Greg is a business man, a great guy to have in a meeting. He told NHRA to either do it or he would buy the outfit and fire these guys, LOL.
NHRA and roll bars for the GT
- Thread starter Accufab
- Start date
Fast Freddy
GPS'D 225 MPH
is their something about the way that the GT is made that a 4 point roll bar or a roll cage cannot be installed in a GT? :confused
Yes. A "legal" NHRA (or IHRA) roll bar or cage requires back braces, running from the top of the hoop down to the frame or rear floor. The GT has a "capsul" with a rear bulkhead (behind the seats). This bulhead is very heavily fortified because the entire rear assembly, engine, transaxle, etc. is bolted to it, plus there is a window there in the bulkhead. You would not want to pierce this bulkhead with tubes, it would actually weaken it. So, this is a "catch-22", the only way to make the car legal for sub 11.50 second runs (meaning stronger in the event it turns over) would be to weaken it.
Our approach with NHRA was to show them the car up close and personal, and to describe that this car was technically approved to go 240 MPH at Le Mans by the FIA (according to Ford Racing), and that even though the car is technically not in compliance with NHRA safety rules, it should be given a waiver because it actually IS "safe".
Many things about the GT are different from, say, a new Mustang. If you had a crane with a magnet, you could lift the car up off the ground with the magnet on the roof, between the door openings, bounce it up and down a few times, put it back on the ground and the doors would open and close jsut fine. Try that with a regular car like a Mustang, and good luck.
NHRA has never had a situation quite like the GT before. Their member tracks WANT you to go out and race (and pay at the gate). The problem is that the car will run 11.80's off the show room floor, and it won't take much to get it below 11.50's, and at 11.49 it needs an "approved roll bar". There are other issues too, but most of them we can deal with. If we are able to get this through their staff, it WILL require that the drivers wear "approved 5-point safety harnesses" under 11.50. This is no big deal and Accufab will be releasing a bolt-on (to existing holes if possible) tabs for these belts. The ones I have seen on this site are NOT NHRA legal, from what I can see. Also, any car running under 11.00 will require a safety hoop around the rear axle shafts (swing axles). Again, this will not be a big deal and will have no down side on the car as a everyday driver.
We will keep everyone informed as we go along on this. NHRA is like every other big business. There is no single person that will ever say "do it". Everything is decided in meetings and with committee's. Need I say more?
Right now I would be happy to get the car approved "as is" for 11.00 flat. That would handle 90% of the GT owners immedietly.
Our approach with NHRA was to show them the car up close and personal, and to describe that this car was technically approved to go 240 MPH at Le Mans by the FIA (according to Ford Racing), and that even though the car is technically not in compliance with NHRA safety rules, it should be given a waiver because it actually IS "safe".
Many things about the GT are different from, say, a new Mustang. If you had a crane with a magnet, you could lift the car up off the ground with the magnet on the roof, between the door openings, bounce it up and down a few times, put it back on the ground and the doors would open and close jsut fine. Try that with a regular car like a Mustang, and good luck.
NHRA has never had a situation quite like the GT before. Their member tracks WANT you to go out and race (and pay at the gate). The problem is that the car will run 11.80's off the show room floor, and it won't take much to get it below 11.50's, and at 11.49 it needs an "approved roll bar". There are other issues too, but most of them we can deal with. If we are able to get this through their staff, it WILL require that the drivers wear "approved 5-point safety harnesses" under 11.50. This is no big deal and Accufab will be releasing a bolt-on (to existing holes if possible) tabs for these belts. The ones I have seen on this site are NOT NHRA legal, from what I can see. Also, any car running under 11.00 will require a safety hoop around the rear axle shafts (swing axles). Again, this will not be a big deal and will have no down side on the car as a everyday driver.
We will keep everyone informed as we go along on this. NHRA is like every other big business. There is no single person that will ever say "do it". Everything is decided in meetings and with committee's. Need I say more?
Right now I would be happy to get the car approved "as is" for 11.00 flat. That would handle 90% of the GT owners immedietly.
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Fast Freddy
GPS'D 225 MPH
well i already knew that the rear bars would not work but for road racing purposes it would be nice to have a main hoop with bars going forward down to the floor board at an angle. would this be doable? also could a cross bar be run between the main hoops behind the drivers seats.
Fast Freddy
GPS'D 225 MPH
Accufab said:
i think most people who buy this car would rather road race it then drag race it. maybe do 1 mile top speed shootouts. that bein said in order to go road racing with the car or do 1 mile top speeds shootout events the rollbar that i described earlier would pass tech for those types of racing events. it would need to be a minimum 1-3/4 diameter .120 wall or .095 wall depending upon the material used. a typical nhra legal 4 point roll bar would have 2 points that would go rearward from the main hoop and attach behind the rear of the main hoop like i have in my viper. with the GT you would not have those bars goin rear ward but you could cross brace the main hoop and at about the same point as the cross brace is located you could run the door bars forward and down into the floor area along the sides in the drivers compartment. all of this would be to nhra spec you just wouldn't have the rear 2 bars. this coupled with the fact that the car has good roll over protection stock already would surely not compromise the car in anyway and only make it "safer" than it already is. i feel that if this is done you might get an exemption from nhra. without an attempt of some kind i don't see how they will pass the car. like my viper the GT is not a drag car. the GT was built for road racing not drag racing. with that said i would build a roll cage for it with that in mind. take a look at how a nhra legal wolfe 6 point roll cage is built for a late model camaro. all you need to do is eliminate the rear 2 bars on this cage and stick it in the GT. i would like to know if this can be made to fit in a GT? because if it will it would pass tech for various types of road racing events and 1 mile top speed shootouts like they have at goliad and maxton.
www.wolferacecraft.com
look under the "F-body" link and then go to roll bars and select the "bolt in" 6 point. you will see a pic of what i am describing above.
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There is no "legal" 4-point roll bar permitted in NHRA (or IHRA). And regardless of the structure of the car or how well designed it is, that won't cut any slack with the NHRA. The purpose of my meeting at NHRA was to try and convince them that the GT is sturdy enough right now "as is", to withstand a roll over without the top collapsing. Ford tells me that it is and is sending me some FIA certification "data" to back this up. Whether NHRA is willing to create a "waiver" for the GT is still an unknown. NHRA could care less what other racing organizations, such as SCCA, etc., approve for a roll bar.
Right now today, any GT can race down any NHRA drag strip without doing anything to the car, provided that the car runs 11.50 or slower in the 1/4 mile. Since they are capable of 11.80's stock, it won't take much to get the car to 11.49 or quicker and at that point, they will throw you out. I am a certified SFI-NHRA Tech Inspector and also the Tech Director for "Fun Ford Weekend". I know what this is all about. I can assure you that every one of the NHRA or SFI safety rules came about as a direct result of a dead or maimed driver, every single one of them (dead, like in not breathing anymore). I don't want to see anyone get hurt, just because they have the ability to purchase a fast car, so this is an important issue with me, and because Ford is a sponsor of FFW and because Ford has a vested interested in wanting modified GT's to race at drag strips (because they sell aftermarket parts for the GT's and want more money from you, of course), I am doing what I can to see if we can get these modified cars approved for racing under 11.49, without the "normal" required roll bars. The GT is not a normal car in this respect and so, I am asking NHRA to review this request in a non-normal way.
I respect what NHRA does regarding safety. Like every other business, they have insurance carriers, liabilities (and lawyers) to deal with, as does FFW and every drag strip too. To get a big organization to waive their normal or standard requirements regarding "safety" so that a bunch of GT owners can go fast on the drag strip is somewhat like trying to push toothpaste back into the tube but we shall see what we shall see.
George Klass
Accufab, Inc.
Right now today, any GT can race down any NHRA drag strip without doing anything to the car, provided that the car runs 11.50 or slower in the 1/4 mile. Since they are capable of 11.80's stock, it won't take much to get the car to 11.49 or quicker and at that point, they will throw you out. I am a certified SFI-NHRA Tech Inspector and also the Tech Director for "Fun Ford Weekend". I know what this is all about. I can assure you that every one of the NHRA or SFI safety rules came about as a direct result of a dead or maimed driver, every single one of them (dead, like in not breathing anymore). I don't want to see anyone get hurt, just because they have the ability to purchase a fast car, so this is an important issue with me, and because Ford is a sponsor of FFW and because Ford has a vested interested in wanting modified GT's to race at drag strips (because they sell aftermarket parts for the GT's and want more money from you, of course), I am doing what I can to see if we can get these modified cars approved for racing under 11.49, without the "normal" required roll bars. The GT is not a normal car in this respect and so, I am asking NHRA to review this request in a non-normal way.
I respect what NHRA does regarding safety. Like every other business, they have insurance carriers, liabilities (and lawyers) to deal with, as does FFW and every drag strip too. To get a big organization to waive their normal or standard requirements regarding "safety" so that a bunch of GT owners can go fast on the drag strip is somewhat like trying to push toothpaste back into the tube but we shall see what we shall see.
George Klass
Accufab, Inc.
Fast Freddy
GPS'D 225 MPH
personally as a road racer myself i would like to see at the minimum some sort of bolt on or weld in roll cage developed for the ford GT. in order to pass tech with the various road racing organiazations in the USA some sort of roll bar or roll cage needs to be developed for this car. this car was made to do more than just go straight it was made to turn. the GT is a rear engine car. all drag cars except for rear engine dragsters such as top fuel cars, etc are front engine. that bein the case i agree that the nhra is goin to assess this cars roll over and crash worthiness totally different than you would say a front engine mustang. the support structure built into a rear engine car is far superior to that of a front engine car. it would darn near be impossible to get the bars goin to the rear of the car as desired by the nhra tech dept for front engine cars. that bein the case my guess is that they are gonna want done what i have suggested in my earlier posts as the minimum. the case for that bein that rear engine cars have been know to sheer in half during wrecks. the roll bar system i have suggested in my earlier post would not only help to deter this problem but provide additional roll support to the front half of the car. the rear of the cars frame is welded into the main roof support stucture of the car very well. the week point of the car is not the rear its the front. they will see this and when they do my guess is they will want to see something like i have suggested. as a road racer and a drag racer i know that thats where i would want the additional suppport to be placed in the car in the event of a roll over
I don't know what the SCCA roll bar or cage requirements are but I'm sure that the dynamics are quite different between road racing and drag racing. Road racing is a bunch of drag strips with turns between them. It would be very difficult to turn a GT over on it's top on a drag strip. You would probably need to lift up one side with a fork lift to do it.
I would have much less concern about the top collapsing as I would about not having a good 5-point harness system (with a crotch strap). If you ever did turn the thing over and the door opened, and then your head stuck out the top, and the door then closed on your dome, that would give you a very serious headache.
I would have much less concern about the top collapsing as I would about not having a good 5-point harness system (with a crotch strap). If you ever did turn the thing over and the door opened, and then your head stuck out the top, and the door then closed on your dome, that would give you a very serious headache.
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Fast Freddy
GPS'D 225 MPH
most certainly the risk of an accident in a GT is much less on a drag strip than a road course. not only that but in the event of a wreck i am sure the consequences on a road course would be more severe than a drag strip where everything is goin straight. with that said i hope you can get a waiver for the GT on dragstrips. i just know that scca and other road racing organizations will not give this car a waiver and so i hope to see some kind of roll bar or roll cage developed that will help this car pass tech for these types of racing events.
when the original GT-40 was made back in the 60's seat belts were less than 10 years old for race cars such as this. fire suits were new too. roll cages weren't even a consideration. 200+ mph down the mulsanne straight at Le Mans with a 4 point restraint, helmet, and proban fire retardent cotton driving suit was as good as it gets. the car never even had a roll bar or a cage in it. i don't think that gurney bubble would have made much of a difference in the event of a roll over, lol. to bad we can't go back to the good old days as far as all this red tape is concerned. i kinda miss havin all that danger that goes with racin. :skep
when the original GT-40 was made back in the 60's seat belts were less than 10 years old for race cars such as this. fire suits were new too. roll cages weren't even a consideration. 200+ mph down the mulsanne straight at Le Mans with a 4 point restraint, helmet, and proban fire retardent cotton driving suit was as good as it gets. the car never even had a roll bar or a cage in it. i don't think that gurney bubble would have made much of a difference in the event of a roll over, lol. to bad we can't go back to the good old days as far as all this red tape is concerned. i kinda miss havin all that danger that goes with racin. :skep
MR2Race
FGT The Velvet Hammer
Roof Crush Test
As part of the crash Test requirements the Feds insist on. I hear that the GT Scored so high that it was the stiffest structure ever tested @ Ford.
And that it even broke the roof crush test fixture the first time it was tested.
If you could get that Data from Ford Racing. It may help your cause?
As part of the crash Test requirements the Feds insist on. I hear that the GT Scored so high that it was the stiffest structure ever tested @ Ford.
And that it even broke the roof crush test fixture the first time it was tested.
If you could get that Data from Ford Racing. It may help your cause?
Fords4life351
Permanent Vacation
safety loops in a rear engine/transaxle car wouldnt be nessesary i would think. As you know on a front engine/rear wheel drive platform if the front u-joint broke it could potentially catapult the car. But since the axles on the GT would run across the track instead of with I would think you may even be able to get away without them. Either way its nice that you're doing all of this, I hope i can own this car in a few years and be able to go to Fontana without having to sand bag it to 11.5 or slower times. :thumbsup
TEXAS GT
2006 Twin Turbo
Did anything ever come of this? I was wondering if Ford ever supplied the requested data. It could help our case at other events like the Silver State Classic.
Fast Freddy
GPS'D 225 MPH
the GT has already been given a waiver for the grand sport classes such as the 150 mph class which i run my viper in with a roll bar. i have raced against more than 1 GT in this class that does not have the class required minimum of a roll bar. in order to run in the faster classes which require a roll cage i think the GT could get a waiver for those classes if you have a 4 point roll bar installed :thumbsup
Gulf GT
GT Owner
I was re-reading some old posts on roll bars and cages. Freddy, Stillen has developed a 4 point bar/cage system for the Ford GT, as it is required to run their car is various events. Steve tried to get a waiver for the road coarse running he does, but he could not get one. I was at their shop today discussing it while I was watching them install my 3.90 gears. Kyle is going to send me some photos and pricing. It's not very expensive. Requires drilling two holes in the frame in four locations. No welding. Removable at any time and does not affect the structual integrity where the holes are drilled.
soroush
Ford Gt Owner
- Aug 8, 2007
- 5,256
here is your data:
look at the first two pics, obviously the car took a pretty nasty spill and must have been traveling at a high rate of speed when it flipped over,..... on the third picture you can see the roof is still pretty much intact and the car has not been flattened by the roll over accident......I could be mistaken but the side window may still be in place.
I know the policy about posting pictures of wrecked cars, but these picture were posted here before, if this is unacceptable please let me know and I will remove them.
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Shelby#18
GTX1 Owner/Moderator
Gulf GT
GT Owner
It's hard to say what happened in that accident, so I would not bet my life on it's conclusions. There is so little space between the roof and our heads, and especially helmets. I am personally not willing to bet my life that the roof of the FGT in the pictures posted didn't collapse 3 inches, because that's all it would take to break my neck, and even less if I were wearing a helmet.
Anyway, just my latest possible mod. I'm not happy about drilling holes in my car, but I am also wondering if I would be less happy in heaven a few years early over 2-3 inches and eight drilled holes.
Anyway, just my latest possible mod. I'm not happy about drilling holes in my car, but I am also wondering if I would be less happy in heaven a few years early over 2-3 inches and eight drilled holes.
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