Misfire - Low on power - Help?


911teo

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Jan 5, 2007
628
Surrey, UK
I have taken the car to Roush for the ford power upgrade package.

They dynoed the car before the swap at 536HP at the crack (do not ask me what algorithm they used.. they are Roush Europe and they pretty much swear by it. I tend to believe them as they dynoed all the Roush 600RE special GT cars and they were all consistent).

The technician was not happy and it was clear the car was not running at full potential (he has developed a fine feel for these cars).

Anyway we installed the Ford pulley and the tune.

New dyno: 586HP.

Still low (they were expecting 620-630HP). The car is clearly not happy at the top end. It has a misfire above 5,500rpm.

At Roush they think it might be a sensor/interference issue related to high engine speed.

They are ordering a crank sensor and a cam sensor and we'll re-dyno.

Previously I had issues with the car misfiring. We replaced coils, plugs, injectors to no avail.

Do you guys have any insight/tips/ideas?

I am going to pick the car up this afternoon together with the dyno sheets.

I will scan them and post them as soon as I can
 

B O N Y

MODERATOR & FGT OWNER
Mark IV Lifetime
Sep 5, 2005
12,110
Fresno, Ca.
I will yield to Torrie or Shadowman to respond.
I pulled with the Heffner tune and pulley and accufab exhaust 602rwhp. Most of the cars pull in that neighborhood. Every dyno is different. Good luck.
 

911teo

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Jan 5, 2007
628
Surrey, UK
It does not seem to me that this is just a tune issue though... Why the misfire?

I have talked to Torrie off line, and I am happy to use one of his tunes... but I don't think just leaning out and advancing is gonna solve the misfire. Or am I wrong? I am not an expert though.

You know I am not too bothered about the last 60-70HP. I am sure I can get there with a more aggressive map, that is not the point. The misfire upsets me as it cuts the fuel delivery and makes the car go in protection mode.
 

californiacuda

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Oct 21, 2005
919
I believe different plugs and gaping are recommended by some? John Mihovetz at Accufab knows more than just about anybody concerning Ford modular engines, busy guy, hard to get ahold of.
 

Not 4N

Tungsten GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Apr 5, 2006
889
Calgary AB
The misfire upsets me as it cuts the fuel delivery and makes the car go in protection mode.

I know you said you changed the coils but that sure sounds like the problem to me. What does the code reader tell you? Are you getting a misfire code on more than one cylinder?
I had the exact same problem on mine and narrowed it down to cylinder 7. Once the coil was replaced the problem was gone.
 

dbk

Admin
Staff member
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Jul 30, 2005
15,256
Metro Detroit
If it's only above 5500 I would check to make sure the tube in between the intake and TB is not collapsing. Accufab makes a sleeve that goes in to make sure at high rpm it doesn't get squished and choke off the engine.
 

911teo

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Jan 5, 2007
628
Surrey, UK
I have the dyno sheets in front of me.... (I will scan them later when I get access to a scanner). The torque and power curve are both smooth and nice (both stock and pullied).

The pullied pusshes 575 @ 3,500rpm and 590 @5,000. Really nice... Then at 5,500 the power curve just trails off.... instead of continuing to 6,300 it just goes flat.

And in stock config it's just the same.

The A/F is flat (stock and Ford tune are on top of each other) all the way past 5,500....

At Roush they believe in a faulty sensor that screwing with the ECU at 5,500. Shooting for cam and or crank sensor.... Does it make sense?

Also I was misinformed about the misfire. It does not misfire at 5,500. No code is recorded and no CEL on the dash. Apologies.
 

MR2Race

FGT The Velvet Hammer
Apr 6, 2006
304
Northville Mi.
I am not a calibrator, but I remember a similar problem.
That was tracked down to the injector control box.

The FGT uses an upgraded EEC4 ECU and required an external controller to operate injectors 9-16.

We need a Calibration Guy to help us out here!
 

tmcphail

GT Owner/Vendor
Mark IV Lifetime
Apr 24, 2006
4,103
St Augustine, Florida
Get the graphs up or email them to me. Its hard to speculate without direct data. What plugs are in the vehicle and what gap ? Spark blowout would have been totally evident on the roller and will show up on the graph.
 

911teo

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Jan 5, 2007
628
Surrey, UK
here is the scan....

PS I have the Accufab inlet sleeve installed
 

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tmcphail

GT Owner/Vendor
Mark IV Lifetime
Apr 24, 2006
4,103
St Augustine, Florida
AF is on target so is the pressure part of the graph if I am looking at that right. It would be nice to see a sensor scan so we could see everything that was occuring thru the run. I would check plug gap #1
 

911teo

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Jan 5, 2007
628
Surrey, UK
I hope you can read it...

PS it looks like Roush is using a 11% factor for crank to rear wheels loss.
 

911teo

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Jan 5, 2007
628
Surrey, UK
AF is on target so is the pressure part of the graph if I am looking at that right. It would be nice to see a sensor scan so we could see everything that was occuring thru the run. I would check plug gap #1

Yes... AF and boost are fine (well so they said at Roush).

I don't know if they have a sensor scan. But they did say they think there might a problem with the cam or crank sensors sending distorted signals once you hit 5,500rpm....

But I had never felt the car being sluggish past 5,500.... I tracked it several times and if felt fine... so I am puzzled.

Tonight driving it back it did feel like I hit the rev limiter when I floored it in 3rd all the way past 5,500....
 

tmcphail

GT Owner/Vendor
Mark IV Lifetime
Apr 24, 2006
4,103
St Augustine, Florida
This is speculation on the issue of course but if your loosing multiple cylinders under load because of spark blowout it will feel like that.

I would check plug gap first. keep it simple first and foremost.

Boost pressure goes up, cylinder pressure goes up and you have to decrease the plug gap.



Yes... AF and boost are fine (well so they said at Roush).

I don't know if they have a sensor scan. But they did say they think there might a problem with the cam or crank sensors sending distorted signals once you hit 5,500rpm....

But I had never felt the car being sluggish past 5,500.... I tracked it several times and if felt fine... so I am puzzled.

Tonight driving it back it did feel like I hit the rev limiter when I floored it in 3rd all the way past 5,500....
 

AJK

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Jul 12, 2006
336
Wasn't there some past posts about some of the engines being down on power because of cam indexing being off ? Could that be a reason for the engine laying down at higher rpm and the misfire ?
 

tmcphail

GT Owner/Vendor
Mark IV Lifetime
Apr 24, 2006
4,103
St Augustine, Florida
If that was the case it would have exhibited this behavior since day one
 

nota4re

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Feb 15, 2006
4,317
As another safe & easy thing to try, I would recommend re-loading the tune into the ECU. It could be that all sensors are fine but there was some hiccup in the file.
 

tmcphail

GT Owner/Vendor
Mark IV Lifetime
Apr 24, 2006
4,103
St Augustine, Florida
As another safe & easy thing to try, I would recommend re-loading the tune into the ECU. It could be that all sensors are fine but there was some hiccup in the file.

Usually if something flakes out in that regard you end up with a no start condition. But since its a simple thing to do to rule out one more variable you made an excellent point
 

californiacuda

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Oct 21, 2005
919
Plugs and/or plug gapping. Is the car running the correct oil?
 

BlackICE

GT Owner
Nov 2, 2005
1,416
SF Bay Area in California
Are you getting the misfire OBDII codes from the ECU?

More than most will want to know about nisfire detection from the service manual.


The Misfire Detection Monitor is an on-board strategy designed to monitor engine misfire and identify the specific cylinder in which the misfire has occurred. Misfire is defined as lack of combustion in a cylinder due to absence of spark, poor fuel metering, poor compression, or any other cause. The Misfire Detection Monitor will be enabled only when certain base engine conditions are first satisfied. Input from the ECT or CHT, MAF, and CKP sensors is required to enable the monitor. The Misfire Detection Monitor is also performed during an on demand self-test.

The PCM synchronized ignition spark is based on information received from the CKP sensor. The CKP signal generated is also the main input used in determining cylinder misfire.
The input signal generated by the CKP sensor is derived by sensing the passage of teeth from the crankshaft position wheel mounted on the end of the crankshaft.
The input signal to the PCM is then used to calculate the time between CKP edges and the crankshaft rotational velocity and acceleration. By comparing the accelerations of each cylinder event, the power loss of each cylinder is determined. When the power loss of a particular cylinder is sufficiently less than a calibrated value and other criteria are met, then the suspect cylinder is determined to have misfired.



Figure 14: Misfire Detection Monitor
Misfire Monitor Operation
There are two different misfire monitoring technologies used in the 2005 MY. They are Low Data Rate (LDR) and High Data Rate (HDR). The LDR system is capable of meeting the FTP monitoring requirements on most engines and is capable of meeting the full-range of misfire monitoring requirements on 4-cylinder engines. The HDR system is capable of meeting the full-range of misfire monitoring requirements on 6 and 8 cylinder engines. HDR is being phased in on these engines to meet the full-range of misfire phase-in requirements specified in the OBD-II regulations. All engines except the 6.8L V-10 are full-range capable. All 2005 MY software allows for detection of any misfires that occur 6 engine revolutions after initially cranking the engine. This meets the new OBD-II requirement to identify misfires within 2 engine revolutions after exceeding the warm drive, idle RPM.

Low Data Rate System
The LDR Misfire Monitor uses a low-data-rate crankshaft position signal, (i.e. one position reference signal at 10 degrees BTDC for each cylinder event). The PCM calculates crankshaft rotational velocity for each cylinder from this crankshaft position signal. The acceleration for each cylinder can then be calculated using successive velocity values. The changes in overall engine RPM are removed by subtracting the median engine acceleration over a complete engine cycle. The resulting deviant cylinder acceleration values are used in evaluating misfire in the General Misfire Processing section below.

High Data Rate System
The HDR Misfire Monitor uses a high data rate crankshaft position signal, (i.e. 18 position references per crankshaft revolution [20 on a V-10]). This high-resolution signal is processed using two different algorithms. The first algorithm, called pattern cancellation, is optimized to detect low rates of misfire. The algorithm learns the normal pattern of cylinder accelerations from the mostly good firing events and is then able to accurately detect deviations from that pattern. The second algorithm is optimized to detect hard misfires, i.e. one or more continuously misfiring cylinders. This algorithm filters the high-resolution crankshaft velocity signal to remove some of the crankshaft torsional vibrations that degrade signal to noise. This significantly improves detection capability for continuous misfires. Both algorithms produce a deviant cylinder acceleration value, which is used in evaluating misfire in the General Misfire Algorithm Processing section below. Due to the high data processing requirements, the HDR algorithms could not be implemented in the PCM microprocessor. They are implemented in a separate chip in the PCM called an AICE chip. The PCM microprocessor communicates with the AICE chip using a dedicated serial communication link. The output of the AICE chip (the cylinder acceleration values) is sent to the PCM microprocessor for additional processing as described below. Lack of serial communication between the AICE chip and the PCM microprocessor, or an inability to synchronize the crank or cam sensors inputs sets a P1309 DTC. For 2005 MY software, the P1309 DTC is being split into two separate DTCs. A P0606 will be set if there is a lack of serial communication between the AICE chip and the PCM microprocessor. A P1336 will be set if there is an inability to synchronize the crank or cam sensors inputs. This change was made to improve serviceability. A P0606 generally results in PCM replacement while a P1336 points to a cam sensor that is out of synchronization with the crank. Profile correction software is used to learn and correct for mechanical inaccuracies in crankshaft tooth spacing under de-fueled engine conditions (requires three decelerations from 97 to 64 km/h (60 to 40 mph) with no-braking after the keep alive memory (KAM) has been reset). If the KAM has been reset, the PCM microprocessor initiates a special routine which computes correction factors for each of the 18 (or 20) position references and sends these correction factors back to the AICE chip to be used for subsequent misfire signal processing. These learned corrections improve the high RPM capability of the monitor. The misfire monitor is not active until a profile has been learned.

Generic Misfire Processing
The acceleration that a piston undergoes during a normal firing event is directly related to the amount of torque that cylinder produces. The calculated piston/cylinder acceleration value(s) are compared to a misfire threshold that is continuously adjusted based on inferred engine torque. Deviant accelerations exceeding the threshold are conditionally labeled as misfires. The calculated deviant acceleration value(s) are also evaluated for noise. Normally, misfire results in a nonsymmetrical loss of cylinder acceleration. Mechanical noise, such as rough roads or high RPM/light load conditions, will produce symmetrical acceleration variations. Cylinder events that indicate excessive deviant accelerations of this type are considered noise. Noise-free deviant acceleration exceeding a given threshold is labeled a misfire. The number of misfires are counted over a continuous 200 revolution and 1000 revolution period. (The revolution counters are not reset if the misfire monitor is temporarily disabled such as for negative torque mode, etc.) At the end of the evaluation period, the total misfire rate and the misfire rate for each individual cylinder is computed. The misfire rate is evaluated every 200 revolution period (Type A) and compared to a threshold value obtained from an engine speed/load table. This misfire threshold is designed to prevent damage to the catalyst due to sustained excessive temperature (1600°F for Pt/Pd/Rh conventional washcoat, 1650°F for Pt/Pd/Rh advanced washcoat and 1800°F for Pd-only high tech washcoat). If the misfire threshold is exceeded and the catalyst temperature model calculates a catalyst mid-bed temperature that exceeds the catalyst damage threshold, the MIL blinks at a 1 Hz rate while the misfire is present. If the threshold is again exceeded on a subsequent driving cycle, the MIL is illuminated. If a single cylinder is indicated to be consistently misfiring in excess of the catalyst damage criteria, the fuel injector to that cylinder may be shut off for a period of time to prevent catalyst damage. Up to two cylinders may be disabled at the same time. This fuel shut-off feature is used on many 8-cylinder engines and some 6-cylinder engines. It is never used on a 4-cylinder engine. Next, the misfire rate is evaluated every 1000 revolution period and compared to a single (Type B) threshold value to indicate an emission-threshold malfunction, which can be either a single 1000 over-rev event from startup or four subsequent 1000 over-rev events on a drive cycle after start-up. Many 2005 MY vehicles will set a P0316 DTC if the Type B malfunction threshold is exceeded during the first 1,000 revolutions after engine startup. This DTC is stored in addition to the normal P03xx DTC that indicates the misfiring cylinder(s).

Profile Correction
"Profile correction" software is used to "learn" and correct for mechanical inaccuracies in the crankshaft position wheel tooth spacing. Since the sum of all the angles between the crankshaft teeth must equal 360°, a correction factor can be calculated for each misfire sample interval that makes all the angles between individual teeth equal. To prevent any fueling or combustion differences from affecting the correction factors, learning is done during deceleration-fuel cutout. The correction factors are learned during closed-throttle, non-braking, de-fueled decelerations in the 97 to 64 km/h (60 to 40 mph) range after exceeding 97 km/h (60 mph) (likely to correspond to a freeway exit condition). In order to minimize the learning time for the correction factors, a more aggressive deceleration-fuel cutout strategy may be employed when the conditions for learning are present. The corrections are typically learned in a single deceleration, but can be learned during up to 3 such decelerations. The "mature" correction factors are the average of a selected number of samples. A low data rate misfire system will typically learn 4 such corrections in this interval, while a high data rate system will learn 36 or 40 in the same interval (data is actually processed in the AICE chip). In order to assure the accuracy of these corrections, a tolerance is placed on the incoming values such that an individual correction factor must be repeatable within the tolerance during learning. This is to reduce the possibility of learning corrections on rough road conditions which could limit misfire detection capability. Since inaccuracies in the wheel tooth spacing can produce a false indication of misfire, the misfire monitor is not active until the corrections are learned. In the event of battery disconnection or loss of Keep Alive Memory, the correction factors are lost and must be relearned. If the software is unable to learn a profile after three 97 to 64 km/h (60 to 40 mph) deceleration cycles, a P0315 DTC is set.

Misfire Monitor Specifications
Misfire Monitor Operation: DTCs P0300 to P0310 (general and specific cylinder misfire), P1309 (no cam/crank synchronization, AICE chip malfunction), P1336 (no cam/crank synchronization), P0606 (AICE chip malfunction), P0315 (unable to learn profile), P0316 (misfire during first 1,000 revolutions after start-up). The monitor execution is continuous, misfire rate calculated every 200 or 1000 revolutions. The monitor does not have a specific sequence. The CKP and CMP sensors have to be OK to run the monitor. The monitoring duration is the entire driving cycle (see disablement conditions below)

Typical misfire monitor entry conditions: Entry condition minimum/maximum time since engine start-up is 0 seconds, engine coolant temperature is -7°C to 121°C (20°F to 250°F), RPM range is (full-range misfire certified, with 2 revolution delay) 2 revolutions after exceeding 150 RPM below drive idle RPM to red-line on tach or fuel cutoff, profile correction factors learned in KAM are "Yes", and fuel tank level is 15%.

Typical misfire temporary disablement conditions: Temporary disablement conditions: Closed throttle deceleration (negative torque, engine being driven), Fuel shut-off due to vehicle-speed limiting or engine-RPM limiting mode, and a high rate of change of torque (heavy throttle tip-in or tip out)

The Profile Learning operation includes DTCs P0315 - unable to learn profile in three 97 to 64 km/h (60 to 40 mph) decelerations and P1309 – AICE chip communication failure; Monitor Execution is once per KAM reset; The Monitor Sequence: Profile must be learned before the misfire monitor is active; The CKP and CMP sensors are required to be OK; AICE communication errors, CKP/CMP in synch. The Monitoring Duration is 10 cumulative seconds in conditions (a maximum of three 97 to 64 km/h (60 to 40 mph) de-fueled decelerations).

Typical profile learning entry conditions: Entry conditions from minimum to maximum: Engine in deceleration-fuel cutout mode for 4 engine cycles the brakes are not applied, the engine RPM is 1300 to 3700 RPM, the change is less than 600RPM, the vehicle speed is 48 to 112 km/h (30 to 75 mph), and the learning tolerance is 1%.




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