Ford vs Safir


911teo

GT Owner
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Jan 5, 2007
628
Surrey, UK
No I am sorry. I went off the tangent. It was clear you were referring to the 2005 car.

What I meant to say is that it was funny that the 1963 car was called Ford GT but everybody knows it as Ford GT40, whilst the 2005 car was meant to be a GT40 but because of legal reasons it remained Ford GT.... like the original one in the end...
 

STORMCAT

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What is funny is that Ford originally called the car Ford GT. It was only the British press that started calling it GT40 after being impressed by how low to the ground it was (40 inches tall).

I have a copy of an interview with Carroll Shelby on Octane where he recalls this very fact.

I can scan it later if anybody is interested.

I've seen this as well... I saw some photos of a 60's car where the side graphic said Ford GT..
 

RALPHIE

GT Owner
Mar 1, 2007
7,278
Yes... you are talking about the 2005 Ford GT, right? I meant the original 1964. That was just a Ford GT...

Yes - I remember that in the original announcements in 1963 in Road & Track. The original name for the GT40 was the "Ford GT" but Ford then used the GT40 name after a few (I think 3) cars in the VIN, as it was a catchier name, and distinguished it from the other GT's on the racing circuit.
 
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AtomicGT

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I've got plenty of these images of the prototype cars shown at the official unveiling announcement of the Ford GT with "GT40" on the sides.

2002_chicago_ford_gt_40_concept_spa.jpg


There was a thread here a few years ago about after market GT40 tape for the sides of the new cars if one wanted that particular look.

The Eagle Tires ROCK
 
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cobraownr

GT Owner
Jul 16, 2007
90
Annapolis, MD
Please do. I'd be interested to read.

Somebody I know very well and trust from the FGT program told me that that was indeed the figure they started off at. Can't imagine he has any reason to fabricate.

OK, following are copies of messages on <www.gt40s.com> about the litigation that Safir GT40 Spares is involved in regarding: (1) the shape of the GT40; and (2) the name "GT40." All are from Bob Wood, one of three owners of Safir. There are two (or in this case three or more) sides to every story. However, I have met Bob Wood a number of times, spoken with him on the phone many times, and believe him to be a straight shooter. I have no axe to grind nor financial stake in this, BTW. Read and draw your own conclusions.

Message from Bob Wood Regarding the GT40 Shape:

In our application for a trademark on the shape, Ford and H&M opposed Safir, i.e., those two entities did/do not want us to have it. This has been going on for several years now. Safir needed/wanted to enter into our case with Holman a deposition that Holman did for Ford, we issued a subpoena to get it, and the action was done in the NC federal district court. The action as quoted above is accurately quoted, however, the information appears to indicate that Ford has a new action against us, Safir. That is not the case.

Bob Wood

Message from Bob Wood Regarding the GT40 Name:

Thank you for the impetus and the forum to tell the real story! We have told several publications the true story, all of which have Ford as a major advertiser. We feel that we will never get a fair deal with any of the automotive periodicals.

I will begin with two statements that are absolutely true. We never demanded any amount of money from Ford, never demanded $40 million, and the Ford Motor Company never made Safir an offer to evaluate. That being stated, one must understand that Ford was unwilling to spend any real money to buy the trademark.

Ford never registered the "GT40" word mark. Peter Thorp did in 1985 to make his MkVs the only legitimate GT40s with the name and successive serial numbers. In 1995 a toy company approached Ford to make a model of the GT40, and Ford realized at that time that they did not have any rights to the GT40 mark. Peter Thorp granted Ford the right to register a "GT40" mark for a different class of products (toys), which registration he could have opposed as it was a "GT40" model of his "GT40" cars. He allowed Ford to do so for no charge. Ford agreed never to interfere with Safir's registration or use of the "GT40" mark for full size automobiles.

When Ford decided to make the GT40 Concept into a production vehicle, Ford asked us (Safir) what we wanted for the mark to sell it to Ford, not just license it. We knew that Ford charges 7.5% of the retail price of a product to license the Blue Oval. We suggested that we begin our negotiations at that level, and that number was in fact $40million. For said that that was out of the question. We then asked Ford to make us an offer. Ford said that they did not want to make us an offer that we would not accept (?); essentially asking us to bid against ourselves! We said that we would take $25million. They laughed and we laughed, and then Ford said, "Seriously, what do you want?" We said, "Seriously,you make us the offer." For never would make us an offer in writing. Several things were suggested for which we asked a written offer. Tom Scarpello of Ford would never put anything in writing.

We told young Keith Crane (K.C.), son of Keith Crane owner Crane publications, just as above. It was K.C. Crane who printed the words "demanded", "bombshell" and that things got "ugly". We never demanded, it was never a bombshell, and we communicated with Ford for three months begging Ford for an offer. Ford for three months kept telling us that the "market equation" which they used to determine how many more cars they would sell as "GT40" vs. "Ford GT" would not justify spending much money on the trademark. Scarpello told us that the trademark was worth only that which we paid for the Safir assets which included the mark;he asked what did we pay $10,000, $15.000, $25,000. Ford never made us an offer, we never demanded any amount, much less the $40million tale, and K.C. Crane published something that was very misleading. It made us look very bad, and Ford the injured party. Ford did not care about the trademark.

We have heard from within Ford that we were offered the first and last car and $5million (Scarpello told that to a group of Ford enthusiasts gathered at a luncheon; he knew that it was not true), that we were offered $1million and a car each (Neil Ressler told me that himself) and that we would not take it, and that we were impossible to deal with. None of which is true.

We were only approached by Automotive News Weekly (K.C.Crane) for our side of the story. K.C.Crane mislead the readers with his wording. No other publication, no other publication, no other publication asked us for the story. DBLDREW links readers to Road and Track who never contacted us. The R&T article is just the same B.S. that R&T got from the Crane article. This is true for every article that has been written, except for articles that were written by Jim Mateja if the Chicago Tribune whom we subsequently contacted, and who wrote the true story. However, that story received little press when compared to the Crane story.

We would deserve the derogatory comments ( "gents" ((above)), "hosers", etc.) which we have been called if in fact there were any truth to the "offers" from Ford. We would have been idiots to have turned down millions of dollars and new cars, and we would not have had they been offered.

The shape is not in the public domain. A tenet of trademark law establishes that if a visual image conjures in one's mind a word mark, then the two are deemed to be one and the same. Does anyone look at a GT40 shaped car and think of anything other than "GT40"? Each mark is able to be registered.
Think of a winged red horse...Mobile Oil?

Thank you for reading! There is more to the story which will be published in the forth-coming Shelby World Registry. As Don S. has written, anyone can call me, and I will be happy to elborate. This is a great site, Ron. Thank you for the forum!

Bob Wood

Another Message from Bob Wood:

Having read thr R&T article, DBLDREW, I must admit that it did not cast the very negative slant on Safir that ANW did. However, we at Safir have a general dissatisfaction with all of the publications in that not one, not one contacted us for the true story. Had DeLorenzo contacted us, we would have told him that Ford would not make us an offer, and that Ford told us that our GT40 trademark was not worth much to Ford when their "market equation" was used. That printed, maybe the public would not have the impression that we were/are "hosers", but that it was/is the Ford Motor Company who did not negotiate in good faith and really did not care much about the tradematk. It was DeLorenzo who, in fact, referred to us as "hosers" in a subsequent article. DeLorenzo would never return my phone calls, never would acknowledge that he "learned" the real story from my very lengthy voice mails, and never retracted the "hosers". That certainly is B.S.!

As DBLDREW aptly states there is always a second side to the story. We feel that all of the publications had a journalistic obligation to get that second side instead of simply following ANW's lead and making Safir look so very bad.

In contrast, Keith Martin in Sportscar Market did retract his negative comments after having spoken to us.
 

dbk

Admin
Staff member
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Jul 30, 2005
15,248
Metro Detroit
Seems like this:

Bob Wood said:
I will begin with two statements that are absolutely true. We never demanded any amount of money from Ford, never demanded $40 million, and the Ford Motor Company never made Safir an offer to evaluate. That being stated, one must understand that Ford was unwilling to spend any real money to buy the trademark.

And this:

Bob Wood said:
When Ford decided to make the GT40 Concept into a production vehicle, Ford asked us (Safir) what we wanted for the mark to sell it to Ford, not just license it. We knew that Ford charges 7.5% of the retail price of a product to license the Blue Oval. We suggested that we begin our negotiations at that level, and that number was in fact $40million. For said that that was out of the question. We then asked Ford to make us an offer. Ford said that they did not want to make us an offer that we would not accept (?); essentially asking us to bid against ourselves! We said that we would take $25million. They laughed and we laughed, and then Ford said, "Seriously, what do you want?" We said, "Seriously,you make us the offer."

Are semantics, no?

I get what he is saying, that they were unfairly portrayed as "demanding" amount X, but the $40 million dollar number was, by his own admission, real. To be realistic, they cut things that cost $7 per unit to make the program's numbers work. Even at $25 mil that's $6200 per vehicle. :lol

p.s, I will not argue that the Cranes have a way with words :lol
 

ChipBeck

GT Owner
Staff member
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Feb 13, 2006
5,783
Scottsdale, Arizona
Brand Equity

And anyway, "Ford GT" was really a better name for Ford to use for the new car - because it built equity into the Ford brand, not the GT40 brand.

An outstanding point that I had not considered before.

Chip
 

Fubar

Totally ****** Up
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I agree, this is just a word dance. They asked for 40mil... they certainly would have taken it. If do want to look greedy... then don't be greedy. It is not acceptable (especially when dealing with contracts) to be "just kidding around."
 

Cobrar

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p.s, I will not argue that the Cranes have a way with words :lol

Yep, ever see KC's girlfriend?? :wink
 

gtinmyblood

GT Owner
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Feb 23, 2007
735
Mesa Az/Aspen Co
It amazes me that the question of $40 million is even an issue. I negotiate deals every day and in the starting "chatty conversation" often times ridiculous numbers are thrown out. Gotta start somewhere and you certainly don't want to start low. So what if that number was thrown out in the room? Does that make the Safir guys, who have busted thier A$$es through the years to build something out of almost nothing, Demons? Sure, like any other GT enthusiast I would have preferred the name GT 40 but it sure as hell didnt keep me from buying one! I say give these guys a break. They are car guys as well and do a heck of a service keeping one of the coolest rides in history alive. Just my two cents worth.
 

B O N Y

MODERATOR & FGT OWNER
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It is amazing to me that folks discuss private negotiations on the Internet and with magazine scribes.... Clearly F wanted the name GT40, after the release of the concept GT pictiures and other promo pieces, how much energy and expense did they incur going from that brand to Ford GT?
In retrospect, who cares, other than Mr. Woods who now has to defend a law suit after leaving money on the table?
 

gtinmyblood

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Amen Bony!
 

AtomicGT

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Apr 12, 2006
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Los Angeles
A few more concept images for the discussion:

Ford20GT40-Concept.jpg

Ford20GT4020Concept20Revealed1.jpg

00015091vz4.jpg
 

SYCO GT

GT Owner
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Sep 9, 2006
5,046
California
I agree, this is just a word dance. They asked for 40mil... they certainly would have taken it. If do want to look greedy... then don't be greedy. It is not acceptable (especially when dealing with contracts) to be "just kidding around."

I agree based on my interpretation.

Simply because one volleys a calculation to the other side, doesn't mean the formula based number is not generated by one's own side. And just because a formula is concocted doesn't automatically make it financially viable or reasonable.

Extreme Initial Offers are fine and expected. But if an offer is wholly ridiculous or outrageous and without merit, then they run the likely risk of setting the stage for hostile negotiations. I appreciate the art of negotiations, but when faced with inconceivable offers, I tend to shut down and lose interest.

Of course, context is also important, and having not been a party to the negotiations, I can't vouch for the atmosphere, manner of delivery, prior relationship or any of the valuable subtext, that may or may not have made a $40MM volley humorous and inviting.

Just my personal thoughts, not meant as a seminar on effective negotiation tactics...
 

SYCO GT

GT Owner
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Sep 9, 2006
5,046
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I personally prefer the Ford GT40 name more than the somewhat generic Ford GT. GT is such a broadly used term, that I find it lacking in distinctiveness. Perhaps, and this is speculation, but perhaps Ford felt that the nomenclature of Ford GT would put emphasis on Ford the company, not the GT as a vehicle. Or perhaps they decided, well, this car isn't really 40 inches high anymore, so that's not completely a descriptive nor accurate term. Who knows...
 

centerpunch

ex-GT owner x2
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Sep 16, 2005
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It amazes me that the question of $40 million is even an issue. I negotiate deals every day and in the starting "chatty conversation" often times ridiculous numbers are thrown out. Gotta start somewhere and you certainly don't want to start low. So what if that number was thrown out in the room? Does that make the Safir guys, who have busted thier A$$es through the years to build something out of almost nothing, Demons? Sure, like any other GT enthusiast I would have preferred the name GT 40 but it sure as hell didnt keep me from buying one! I say give these guys a break. They are car guys as well and do a heck of a service keeping one of the coolest rides in history alive. Just my two cents worth.

+1
 

K-P Garage

GT Owner
Sep 12, 2005
364
Longwood, Florida
The only real problem is the Mustang Gt

I only wished that they called the Mustang V8 something else. I have yet to meet a dealership person that gets it right without a few takes.
 

dbk

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I only wished that they called the Mustang V8 something else. I have yet to meet a dealership person that gets it right without a few takes.

Come on, that's part of the fun. :lol

"I have a GT."
"Right, a Mustang."
"No, a GT, two seat midengine car.."
"So the big V8."
"Sure, it's a GT and has a big V8."
"Mustang."
"No."
"Mustang."
 

Gulf GT

GT Owner
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Come on, that's part of the fun. :lol

"I have a GT."
"Right, a Mustang."
"No, a GT, two seat midengine car.."
"So the big V8."
"Sure, it's a GT and has a big V8."
"Mustang."
"No."
"Mustang."

Good point. A GT40 is not thought of as a "Mustang". Would have been nice to have the GT40 name, but then it would have also been nice if the good Lord would have seen fit to give me an extra few inches.
 

pauleddy

Owner
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306
Newport/Boca Grande
I'm sure that many other owners of our cars have experienced the "Mustang" confusion when re-up-ing for insurance or ordering a part. The "GT" moniker is 'way to generic, IMO but we're stuck with it...unless some legal genius among us feels inclined to go to the mat on this one!
The GT40 is what our cars were closely patterned after and are undeniably beautiful with all the right credentials to make driving both fun and scarry, depending on how much respect...or lack of same, one cares to exercise.