californiacuda
GT Owner
- Oct 21, 2005
- 919
Yeah, John Mihovetz is Accufab and Bob Ida is, well, Bob Ida. Accufab is in Ontario, Southern California.
Ford Race Header/Exhaust
- Thread starter MG0427
- Start date
Jason Watt
Had both, sold both
dgussin1 said:
But I bet that Bob could make 1800 HP with the GT!! If the "Bob's bends" is worth 50HP then it's a case of simple math..
Just add enough of those bends until you reach the desired HP numbers..
:thumbsup
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If your desire is to flame, someone, some company, something, then create a new topic called flame xyz and go for it. This forum provider may or may not allow it. I’ve already seen several instances where he has stepped in to put a stop to some things.
If you desire is to add substance to a given thread then add your input / comments to that thread.
However, don’t for one minute think that your stock GT is anything different from my car or others I’ve seen.
In stock condition they all are prone to heat soak. They all draw in hot air when driven slowly or during stop and go traffic (especially now with the hot summer weather upon us). The First step is to recognize there is an issue. If you choose not to believe it that is fine. However, don’t say this condition does not exist without first dragging out your data logger and clocking several hours in stop and go traffic! Been there! Done it and seen it with my own eyes!
How many here have seen IAT and engine temperatures for the GT with the windows open vs closed. My guess is it's the Roush folks, top inside Ford design guys and Ida Automotive. Be careful what league you are playing with on this forum.
Bob Ida’s exhaust lowers temperatures and back pressure. His exhaust will allow your car to produce more power at hot temperatures than the other guy with a stock or Borla muffler. It’s a fact and yes it's a high double digit number! He has documented the temperature issues, shown his dyno sheets, IAT, etc. Belive it.
The FRPP exhaust is likely to lower engine temperatures too due to the fact that it eliminates the muffler, however I have not yet seen IAT data for this kind of system.
For me the large down side for the FRPP system is that it’s real loud and it does not offer any significant HP advantage over the Ida Automotive system.
A few of us have been around long enough to see folks come and go from the specialty market. Ida Automotive is one of the companies that have been around. They are proud of what they do and the Ida Automotive products deliver on what they say.
So, choose the aftermarket exhaust (or other product) you desire based on what ever you want.
I’ve only posted this here so that others have some first hand information to make an educated choice.
Drive it and enjoy it!
If you desire is to add substance to a given thread then add your input / comments to that thread.
However, don’t for one minute think that your stock GT is anything different from my car or others I’ve seen.
In stock condition they all are prone to heat soak. They all draw in hot air when driven slowly or during stop and go traffic (especially now with the hot summer weather upon us). The First step is to recognize there is an issue. If you choose not to believe it that is fine. However, don’t say this condition does not exist without first dragging out your data logger and clocking several hours in stop and go traffic! Been there! Done it and seen it with my own eyes!
How many here have seen IAT and engine temperatures for the GT with the windows open vs closed. My guess is it's the Roush folks, top inside Ford design guys and Ida Automotive. Be careful what league you are playing with on this forum.
Bob Ida’s exhaust lowers temperatures and back pressure. His exhaust will allow your car to produce more power at hot temperatures than the other guy with a stock or Borla muffler. It’s a fact and yes it's a high double digit number! He has documented the temperature issues, shown his dyno sheets, IAT, etc. Belive it.
The FRPP exhaust is likely to lower engine temperatures too due to the fact that it eliminates the muffler, however I have not yet seen IAT data for this kind of system.
For me the large down side for the FRPP system is that it’s real loud and it does not offer any significant HP advantage over the Ida Automotive system.
A few of us have been around long enough to see folks come and go from the specialty market. Ida Automotive is one of the companies that have been around. They are proud of what they do and the Ida Automotive products deliver on what they say.
So, choose the aftermarket exhaust (or other product) you desire based on what ever you want.
I’ve only posted this here so that others have some first hand information to make an educated choice.
Drive it and enjoy it!
californiacuda
GT Owner
- Oct 21, 2005
- 919
So, we are to believe that changing to his exhaust adds 40 to 50 whp? It is a very unreasonable assumption. Just because you say he's a great, competent guy(he probably is), we're suppose to believe everything that he says. I don't think so.
Bart Carter
GT Owner
It was my understanding that the IDA exhaust itself does very little to raise HP. It's the lowering of the temperatures that keeps the electronics from dialing back the HP to keep the car in a safe zone. So in effect you get the extra HP by not losing it to the heat. The 40 pounds plus loss of weight over the original muffler is a big plus too.
californiacuda
GT Owner
- Oct 21, 2005
- 919
The intake air for the engines comes from the naca duct located up on the clamshell on the OUTSIDE, OUTSIDE, OUTSIDE of the car.
An exhaust like the Ida, or Accufab remove the stock or borla muffler which is a heat soak intem in the engine compartment. The hp increase comes from removing exhaust restriction in the exhaust track, not from a reduction in engine compartment temperature.
Maybe when a car is located on a chassis dyno, in a stationary position with the clamshell open, yes the air around the engine would affect combustion air temps, but I don't think that most people drive around with the clamshell open and would get the combustion air from OUTSIDE, OUTSIDE, OUTSIDE the engine compartment.
An exhaust like the Ida, or Accufab remove the stock or borla muffler which is a heat soak intem in the engine compartment. The hp increase comes from removing exhaust restriction in the exhaust track, not from a reduction in engine compartment temperature.
Maybe when a car is located on a chassis dyno, in a stationary position with the clamshell open, yes the air around the engine would affect combustion air temps, but I don't think that most people drive around with the clamshell open and would get the combustion air from OUTSIDE, OUTSIDE, OUTSIDE the engine compartment.
Beach-GT
GT Owner
Trackday, I don't think anyone is trying to flame anyone. What we have here is a vendor with some pretty incredible claims - and which from all intuitive sense, simply doesn't add up (on the surface). We are pretty blessed with an intelligent community here and (in my mind) there are several unanswered questions regarding the claims made by Ida.
For a fact, we have some VERY credible sources - Kenne Bell and Accufab to name two, with actual dyno testing of various exhaust systems. Kenne Bell has publicly stated that they saw virtually no HP increase with exhaust "improvements". Over at Accufab, they experimented with numerous designs and found one with a 14HP increase. Then, we have Ida - with an implied improvement of up to 60HP!!
!!!UPDATE!!! So, as a write this I want to be accurate and I flip over to Ida's website to avoid misquoting them. Lo and behold, the site has changed! It seems that Ida is now saying EXACTLY what I was saying in my post on March 28.
From Ida's site today, "I have been asked to explain this Dyno graph. What it shows is when the Intake air temp (IAT) goes up power goes down. Our exhaust system keeps the IAT down. Simple."
In a nutshell, the Ida dyno charts show the result of lower IATs. As such, similar exhausts - Ford Racing, Accufab, Kenne Bell (if produced), could have made the same claims... The leap is directly associating an exhaust change to lower IAT's... and how to test/validate this in the real world.
From my perspective, the Ida site was minimally very misleading. We can validate this perspestive by the number of posts from members thinking they had solid HP benefits after installing thius exhaust. Curiously, there isn't a single, non-Ida-sourced post of a before/after comparison. Now, after several months, we have a clarification on the Ida site (I have no idea when it first appeared.)
Finally, and to the best of my knowledge, there have been no posts/ clarifications to this board from Ida or any of his personnel - despite the curiosity that many of us have expressed. For sure it is not a requirement, but I am deeply respectful of Muscle Motors, Accufab, Kenne Bell, Heffner and others who take the time to participate and "give" to this site and the members, rather than to simply benefit from it.
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lamboman
GT Owner
Jason Watt
Had both, sold both
Bart Carter, thanks you’ve got it. It’s about significant decreases in intake temperature that allow the car to make the full HP potential in the real world. His exhaust also lowers the peak engine temperature because it allows more air to exit the car and thus eliminates the heat soak issue.
Cal…cuda, you’re almost there. I spoke to Bob Ida weeks ago and he was very gracious to offer his time explaining that the real world temperature data comes from driving the car on the street (clam shell closed). Not some wave of the hand magic by opening the clam shell and closing the clam shell on the chassis dyno. In addition the real world driving data was taken data directly from the EEC for IAT, engine temperature, and more. So, Ida Automotive knows what is truly going on with temperatures, the effect to the EEC engine management and resulting loss of HP with the stock exhaust.
Back up analysis on the dyno was done with the clam shell closed, open and many other things to test out different possible solutions.
Data provided on the web site shows what the real world result are for IAT and HP. If you can lower IAT big double digit numbers it will produce significantly more power. It’s as simple as that.
Nota4re, To my knowledge others such as Kenny Bell, Accufab have results of their systems in a “static” way using just the chassis dyno. The difference is that Ida Automotive has tested their system in a dynamic way on the street, in the real world (stop and go traffic, around town slow driving in summer weather). My own car exhibited exactly what Bob Ida described, heat soak, high engine temperatures, higher than normal IAT. The Ida exhaust reduced peak engine temperatures, lowered IAT, increased the HP (especially around town driving conditions). In a nut shell the Ida exhaust delivered the goods as advertised!
Many here already have the Ida exhaust on their car but I imagine like myself they may be reluctant to go through the back and forth it has taken me here on this forum.
If you are interested to purchase his exhaust or other products give him a call and ask some questions. If you have the time, then stop at his shop and kick the tires with the man. Few are this honest and have this level of integrity. I highly recommend his shop.
Thanks guys for keeping the discussion intelligent, on topic and without inserting insult (flames), etc.
Cal…cuda, you’re almost there. I spoke to Bob Ida weeks ago and he was very gracious to offer his time explaining that the real world temperature data comes from driving the car on the street (clam shell closed). Not some wave of the hand magic by opening the clam shell and closing the clam shell on the chassis dyno. In addition the real world driving data was taken data directly from the EEC for IAT, engine temperature, and more. So, Ida Automotive knows what is truly going on with temperatures, the effect to the EEC engine management and resulting loss of HP with the stock exhaust.
Back up analysis on the dyno was done with the clam shell closed, open and many other things to test out different possible solutions.
Data provided on the web site shows what the real world result are for IAT and HP. If you can lower IAT big double digit numbers it will produce significantly more power. It’s as simple as that.
Nota4re, To my knowledge others such as Kenny Bell, Accufab have results of their systems in a “static” way using just the chassis dyno. The difference is that Ida Automotive has tested their system in a dynamic way on the street, in the real world (stop and go traffic, around town slow driving in summer weather). My own car exhibited exactly what Bob Ida described, heat soak, high engine temperatures, higher than normal IAT. The Ida exhaust reduced peak engine temperatures, lowered IAT, increased the HP (especially around town driving conditions). In a nut shell the Ida exhaust delivered the goods as advertised!
Many here already have the Ida exhaust on their car but I imagine like myself they may be reluctant to go through the back and forth it has taken me here on this forum.
If you are interested to purchase his exhaust or other products give him a call and ask some questions. If you have the time, then stop at his shop and kick the tires with the man. Few are this honest and have this level of integrity. I highly recommend his shop.
Thanks guys for keeping the discussion intelligent, on topic and without inserting insult (flames), etc.
californiacuda
GT Owner
- Oct 21, 2005
- 919
If the combustion air is taken from the outside of the car(and it is), then how does the temperature in the engine compartment affect iat?
The only possible way is when the car is in a parked, or slow moving condtion the there is a general heat build up in and around the car that could be made worse by the stock exhaust.
Once the car begins moving again very quickly the combustion air would be force fed in from the naca duct and the iat would drop to ambient.
So there could be a momentary drop in hp due to heat in a close to stationary vehicle, but it doesn't make a difference, you don't need hp when you are standing still.
The only possible way is when the car is in a parked, or slow moving condtion the there is a general heat build up in and around the car that could be made worse by the stock exhaust.
Once the car begins moving again very quickly the combustion air would be force fed in from the naca duct and the iat would drop to ambient.
So there could be a momentary drop in hp due to heat in a close to stationary vehicle, but it doesn't make a difference, you don't need hp when you are standing still.
Hi Cal….Cuda,
The entire clam shell air inlet, air cleaner box, air filter, MassAir, supercharger, intake, etc all heat up due to the high under-hood conditions. The cooler air coming in from outside is heated as it goes through the clam shell intake duct – air cleaner box, air filter, mass air etc. on it’s way in to the supercharger. The “cooler” outside air being drawn in while driving at slow speeds is not nearly enough to counteract the heat sink issues existing under the hood. It takes a long period of driving at speed to reduce this high under-hood situation. You can’t just drive a few stop lights down the road and remedy this condition. I’ve seen how long it took my stock exhaust car to reduce the temperatures even at highway speeds.
In addition, the air intake from the clam shell is not as straight forward as you had suggested. The air inlet is ducted, baffled, etc. Bob Ida has looked at these issues and more.
Call him and I think you’ll end up purchasing his exhaust system to become another of his very happy customers. Enjoy.
The entire clam shell air inlet, air cleaner box, air filter, MassAir, supercharger, intake, etc all heat up due to the high under-hood conditions. The cooler air coming in from outside is heated as it goes through the clam shell intake duct – air cleaner box, air filter, mass air etc. on it’s way in to the supercharger. The “cooler” outside air being drawn in while driving at slow speeds is not nearly enough to counteract the heat sink issues existing under the hood. It takes a long period of driving at speed to reduce this high under-hood situation. You can’t just drive a few stop lights down the road and remedy this condition. I’ve seen how long it took my stock exhaust car to reduce the temperatures even at highway speeds.
In addition, the air intake from the clam shell is not as straight forward as you had suggested. The air inlet is ducted, baffled, etc. Bob Ida has looked at these issues and more.
Call him and I think you’ll end up purchasing his exhaust system to become another of his very happy customers. Enjoy.
EasyEric
GT Owner
One point being missed here is, the Accufab and the Ida exhaust BOTH should lower the engine compartment temperatures, because they BOTH reduce blockage and allow better airflow.
Therefore, any IAT redcutions due to lower engine compartment temps should be exhibited by both exhaust systems.
Eric
Therefore, any IAT redcutions due to lower engine compartment temps should be exhibited by both exhaust systems.
Eric
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PRDATR
GT Owner
Heat soak is a significant horsepower problem. Just go to your local dragstrip and see what measures racers take to cool down engine temps. Or the seat of the pants dyno when comparing acceleration runs with the engine hot vs. cold with the same ambient air temps.
Eric, you are right that both the Ida exhaust and the Accufab exhaust should both minimize heat soak when compared with the stock muffler or the Borla 'large can' muffler. In addition the Ford Racing rear exit header/exhaust that Nota4re installed should also minimize heat soak. Its great to have choices. :cheers
Eric, you are right that both the Ida exhaust and the Accufab exhaust should both minimize heat soak when compared with the stock muffler or the Borla 'large can' muffler. In addition the Ford Racing rear exit header/exhaust that Nota4re installed should also minimize heat soak. Its great to have choices. :cheers
Hi Eric,
You’ve got it!
The Accufab exhaust or (as I stated earlier) the FRPP race exhaust may also lower these temperatures.
However, Accufab and FRPP have not produced data to show any resulting temperatures for their systems.
So I went directly to the guy (Ida Automotive) that developed this kind of system and has a patent pending on it.
He has clearly put an enormous amount of thought, time and effort into the design of this kind of system.
So, when you consider the time he put into finding a solution and the quality of his system it’s a reasonable price. Plus the purchase of his system supports a vendor that continues to work and offer more solutions and options for our cars.
Thanks guys!
Enjoying the power even with the summer heat and the A/C on!
You’ve got it!
The Accufab exhaust or (as I stated earlier) the FRPP race exhaust may also lower these temperatures.
However, Accufab and FRPP have not produced data to show any resulting temperatures for their systems.
So I went directly to the guy (Ida Automotive) that developed this kind of system and has a patent pending on it.
He has clearly put an enormous amount of thought, time and effort into the design of this kind of system.
So, when you consider the time he put into finding a solution and the quality of his system it’s a reasonable price. Plus the purchase of his system supports a vendor that continues to work and offer more solutions and options for our cars.
Thanks guys!
Enjoying the power even with the summer heat and the A/C on!
EasyEric
GT Owner
Although they've produced no data to confirm it, Accufab does claim a temperature reduction of up to 20 degrees in the engine bay using their X-pipe.
See the first post in this thread: http://www.fordgtforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2143
Eric
See the first post in this thread: http://www.fordgtforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2143
Eric
Bart Carter
GT Owner
californiacuda said:
FWIW, it is not a NACA duct.
No one is disputing where the air is coming from. It looks like the dispute comes from whether a car running at 230 degrees makes less HP than a car running at 190 degrees.
californiacuda
GT Owner
- Oct 21, 2005
- 919
The design is very, very, very similar to a naca duct.
Their is no dispute as to lower air temps usually equal more hp(providing the car computer can make adjustment to air/fuel ratio, because at lower temps there is more oxygen for the same volume). So I think your misinterpreting the real issue.
I think the issues is, how much of an effect does the stock muffler, and the fact that it holds more heat than other exhaust systems, have on lowering horsepower.
I would submit to you that because the combustion air is drawn from the outside of the vehicle, and that hp is important when moving, not when standing still, that the heat soak issue and its affect on hp produced becomes mute when the car is in a regular moving, higher speed condition.
It would only take a short amount of time for some metal parts to cool off after heat soak(the throttle body and blower, not the plastic air ducts or maf or throttle ducting), if the only heat energy being applied to them is from engine compartment heat soak
If someone wants to construct a basically unimportant scenerio to prove a point, I think its usually easy to do so. Running stop light to stop light I don't think one would typically need all 500 whp, especially when the traction from the stock tires don't come close to hooking up.
So, when the car goes fast the combustion air to the engine is ambient or close to it, and horespower is not reduced by much if at all.
Their is no dispute as to lower air temps usually equal more hp(providing the car computer can make adjustment to air/fuel ratio, because at lower temps there is more oxygen for the same volume). So I think your misinterpreting the real issue.
I think the issues is, how much of an effect does the stock muffler, and the fact that it holds more heat than other exhaust systems, have on lowering horsepower.
I would submit to you that because the combustion air is drawn from the outside of the vehicle, and that hp is important when moving, not when standing still, that the heat soak issue and its affect on hp produced becomes mute when the car is in a regular moving, higher speed condition.
It would only take a short amount of time for some metal parts to cool off after heat soak(the throttle body and blower, not the plastic air ducts or maf or throttle ducting), if the only heat energy being applied to them is from engine compartment heat soak
If someone wants to construct a basically unimportant scenerio to prove a point, I think its usually easy to do so. Running stop light to stop light I don't think one would typically need all 500 whp, especially when the traction from the stock tires don't come close to hooking up.
So, when the car goes fast the combustion air to the engine is ambient or close to it, and horespower is not reduced by much if at all.
Bart Carter
GT Owner
A NACA duct is formed into the body of a car and has a specific shape that pushes air into to duct at speed. It starts out narrow and shallow at it's beginning and ends wide and deep at it's end. The beginning is facing directly forward and the end is facing directly back in relation to the car. It is the shape of the duct and the airflow over the body that gives it the ability to pressure the air.
The GT ducts have none of these characteristics. Although I do not have any knowledge one way or another, it is possible that Ford engineered the shape of the body on the GT such as there is a high pressure area where the ducts are and this could actually help feed air into them.
IMO the part that contributes the most to heating the intake air is the supercharger. Intercoolers were developed for this problem. When the engine reaches higher temperatures, the supercharger will be the part that far exceeds anything else in heating the air. Of course the cooler the air entering the system, the better.
Any exhaust, Ida, Accufab, etc., that relieves the blockage of air by the stock size muffler will allow a cooler engine compartment. This will vary with speed. I also feel that you can't correlate air flow with different speeds. It could be when you reach a specific speed, that the original muffler will not let any more air flow through no matter how fast you travel because there is a point where airflow is slower due to it's own pressure through a passage.
I also have no knowledge if the GT goes into a lower HP mode when a certain temperature is reached. Does any one else know and what the details are?
The GT ducts have none of these characteristics. Although I do not have any knowledge one way or another, it is possible that Ford engineered the shape of the body on the GT such as there is a high pressure area where the ducts are and this could actually help feed air into them.
IMO the part that contributes the most to heating the intake air is the supercharger. Intercoolers were developed for this problem. When the engine reaches higher temperatures, the supercharger will be the part that far exceeds anything else in heating the air. Of course the cooler the air entering the system, the better.
Any exhaust, Ida, Accufab, etc., that relieves the blockage of air by the stock size muffler will allow a cooler engine compartment. This will vary with speed. I also feel that you can't correlate air flow with different speeds. It could be when you reach a specific speed, that the original muffler will not let any more air flow through no matter how fast you travel because there is a point where airflow is slower due to it's own pressure through a passage.
I also have no knowledge if the GT goes into a lower HP mode when a certain temperature is reached. Does any one else know and what the details are?