E85 - Green and Mean GT Possible?


HeritageBruce

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Mar 13, 2006
748
Southern CA
After reading about the new E85 Z06 Pace Car for the next Indy500 and Jay Leno's E85 Vette putting out 600 HP, I couldn't help but wonder how difficult it is for someone like Accufab or Whipple to put out an E85 version of their tuner package? Who need 100 octane gas anymore?
 
Aug 25, 2006
4,436
After reading about the new E85 Z06 Pace Car for the next Indy500 and Jay Leno's E85 Vette putting out 600 HP, I couldn't help but wonder how difficult it is for someone like Accufab or Whipple to put out an E85 version of their tuner package? Who need 100 octane gas anymore?

The easy answer is yes it can be done however as for level of difficulty; the answer to this is certainly subjectively based one's access to existing data supported by a donor gal, one's desire/ability to allocate development time, and of course the funds to support the process.

All that is needed is a donor gal and a check to cover the last two items.

All the best

Shadowman
 

BlackICE

GT Owner
Nov 2, 2005
1,416
SF Bay Area in California
Two thing concern me about using E85. Is the fuel system compatible without any short or long term damage to the fuel pump, filter, plumbing, seals and injectors. Another is that E85 has an energy density of only 71% of gas (by volume), so depending in the HP level you are seeking E85 needs about a 41% higher flow rate than gas. Can the stock fuel pump and injectors keep up?

If the above concerns are not a problem, then all that would be needed is to retune the fuel flow vs. air flow. Theoretically the tune has just one parameter to adjust for the switch to E85. The next step after correcting A/F ratio is to adjust the spark curves since E85 has a higher octane rating than gas.


Any takers?
 
Last edited:
H

HHGT

Guest
I have strong personal opinions against E85. Use Google and you can find pros & cons all over the map. The benefits are ridiculous and the side effects could be irreparable.

An excerpt of one my favorite and to the point articles;

"What GM left out of its ads was that the use of this fuel would likely increase the amount of smog during the summer months (as the EPA's own attorneys had admitted in 1995) -- and that using E85 in GM products would lower their fuel efficiency by as much as 25%. (USA Today recently reported that the Energy Dept. estimated the drop in mileage at 40%.)"

I am all for alternative energy, but this one is bunk. I look forward to Chip's opinion on this issue. And oh BTW, I still do a burnout every time I see a Toyota Prius..:biggrin


You can find the whole article here;
http://autos.aol.com/article/hybrid/v2/_a/are-there-problems-with-e85/20060427121009990001
 

BlackICE

GT Owner
Nov 2, 2005
1,416
SF Bay Area in California
E85 isn't green, it is political lobbing! However a car modified to run on E85 will make more power than running on 92 octane gas. But you burn 40% more fuel (gallons) for the same energy output and the fuel cost more than plain gas (even with the gov. subsidies) before adjusting for the mileage lost! Your range per tank likewise will go down by 40%!

:thumbsdow

However I do own some ADM :thumbsup
 
Last edited:

californiacuda

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Oct 21, 2005
919
E85 is estimated to have an octane level of 105. Because it has a lower stoichio level than gas, around 9.5 to 1, it runs much cooler. Hence more boost can safely be applied to the engine before detonation or preignition occurs.

If you can find it, not bad for around the same price as pump gas.
 

ChipBeck

GT Owner
Staff member
Mark IV Lifetime
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Feb 13, 2006
5,783
Scottsdale, Arizona
Ethanol is not green, it's brown (BS)

I have strong personal opinions against E85.

"What GM left out of its ads was that the use of this fuel would likely increase the amount of smog during the summer months (as the EPA's own attorneys had admitted in 1995) -- and that using E85 in GM products would lower their fuel efficiency by as much as 25%. (USA Today recently reported that the Energy Dept. estimated the drop in mileage at 40%.)"

I am all for alternative energy, but this one is bunk.

I look forward to Chip's opinion on this issue. [/url]

Gentlemen,

Ethanol is BS. It is more than just a failure, it's a disaster. It unquestionably takes more energy to produce it than the product makes. In addition, because it soaks up water like a sponge, it cannot be shipped, as gasoline is, through energy efficient pipelines. To transport it, ethanol must be trucked, burning up even more energy. We have in this country, offshore and onshore, billions of barrels of oil known to be available and accessible. Environmentalists morons and uneducated Americans have successfully prevented our tapping this most efficient energy resource. Instead, these well-meaning but economically and environmentally ignorant individuals have us stripping millions of acres for farmland, using nitrogen and pesticides on a massive scale, consuming billions of barrels of water annually, driving the price of every food stock from tortillas to prime beef to all-time record highs, and consuming ungodly amounts of energy, both electricity and diesel, to produce corn so we can turn it into an unstable, inefficient, and the inferior motor fuel. In energy as in everything else, if it makes sense, the free marketplace will do it. We have over 300 million people in this nation all looking for a better way to do everything. We have 535 arrogant elitists in Washington with egos so large that they think the 300 million people have missed the obvious solution to energy independence that they in their infinite wisdom can clearly see even though none of them has any experience in the energy business. Because their solution makes no economic sense and is therefore guaranteed to lose massive amounts of money, they jam it down our throats by force of law, tax us to subsidize it, making the boondoggle mandatory. For every gallon of gasoline produced with 15% ethanol Congress takes $.50 per gallon from US taxpayers and gives it to ethanol producers. The cost of this 15% ethanol blend is higher than the gasoline price would be without the ethanol so those same US taxpayers must pay more per gallon at the pump. THEN, because this 15% ethanol blend gives poorer mileage in your car you must fill up more often, burn more fuel, create more air pollution, and spend even more. And to cap it all off, repair costs of your vehicle will generally be greater because of the more corrosive nature of this fuel. Oh, and don't forget the 30% more each month you're spending at the grocery store because of this witches brew.

Politicians love to talk about, "The failure of the marketplace". I'm not sure there ever has been a failure of the marketplace but if that does occur, it's very rare. The failures of government however, are the norm. Our government has shackled our oil and energy companies that have over 100 years of experience with laws that make it illegal for them to produce and sell us energy in the most efficient manner possible. This is as idiotic as it would be to let a class of third-grade public school kids mandate to the Honda Motor Co. what kind of cars it should build and how it should build and distribute them. Every US citizen is paying a heavy price for our having let this happen.

Chip
Owner/Operator
Team CB Petroleum Properties, LLC
 
Last edited:

AlohaGT

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Jul 13, 2007
1,600
Honolulu, HI
So, Chip, how do begin to put an end to this nonsense?
 

californiacuda

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Oct 21, 2005
919
There are 2 issues that are being discussed with E85, one is the political/economic, and the other is its possible use as a cheap(by the gallon) high performance fuel.

I think it would be helpful to differentiate the two
 

KJRGT

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
May 4, 2006
2,840
SoCal
AlohaGT, I'm afraid the only way is to throw the bums out of Congress....but then you have to find true Americans as replacements, willing to serve in politics on behalf of their country and fellow citizens, and to act like patriots, not privateers.
 

AlohaGT

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Jul 13, 2007
1,600
Honolulu, HI
KJRGT, I think you're exactly right.
 

Dan Schoneck

Permanent Vacation
Oct 31, 2007
41
Gentlemen,

Ethanol is bulls##t. It is more than just a failure, it's a disaster. It unquestionably takes more energy to produce it than the product makes. In addition, because it soaks up water like a sponge, it cannot be shipped, as gasoline is, through energy efficient pipelines. To transport it, ethanol must be trucked, burning up even more energy. We have in this country, offshore and onshore, billions of barrels of oil known to be available and accessible. Environmentalists morons and uneducated Americans have successfully prevented our tapping this most efficient energy resource. Instead, these well-meaning but economically and environmentally ignorant individuals have us stripping millions of acres for farmland, using nitrogen and pesticides on a massive scale, consuming billions of barrels of water annually, driving the price of every food stock from tortillas to prime beef to all-time record highs, and consuming ungodly amounts of energy, both electricity and diesel, to produce corn so we can turn it into an unstable, inefficient, and the inferior motor fuel. In energy as in everything else, if it makes sense, the free marketplace will do it. We have over 300 million people in this nation all looking for a better way to do everything. We have 535 arrogant elitists in Washington with egos so large that they think the 300 million people have missed the obvious solution to energy independence that they in their infinite wisdom can clearly see even though none of them has any experience in the energy business. Because their solution makes no economic sense and is therefore guaranteed to lose massive amounts of money, they jam it down our throats by force of law, tax us to subsidize it, making the boondoggle mandatory. For every gallon of gasoline produced with 15% ethanol Congress takes $.50 per gallon from US taxpayers and gives it to ethanol producers. The cost of this 15% ethanol blend is higher than the gasoline price would be without the ethanol so those same US taxpayers must pay more per gallon at the pump. THEN, because this 15% ethanol blend gives poorer mileage in your car you must fill up more often, burn more fuel, create more air pollution, and spend even more. And to cap it all off, repair costs of your vehicle will generally be greater because of the more corrosive nature of this fuel. Oh, and don't forget the 30% more each month you're spending at the grocery store because of this witches brew.

Politicians love to talk about, "The failure of the marketplace". I'm not sure there ever has been a failure of the marketplace but if that does occur, it's very rare. The failures of government however, are the norm. Our government has shackled our oil and energy companies that have over 100 years of experience with laws that make it illegal for them to produce and sell us energy in the most efficient manner possible. This is as idiotic as it would be to let a class of third-grade public school kids mandate to the Honda Motor Co. what kind of cars it should build and how it should build and distribute them. Every US citizen is paying a heavy price for our having let this happen.

Chip
Owner/Operator
Team CB Petroleum Properties, LLC

Chip
I don't know where u get your info from but e85 is 85% ethonal and 15% gasoline. HENSE THE E85. E85 is the best thing since race gas for supercharged and turbocharged cars. I don't care what u say the gasoline issue and situation is ****ed weather it is e85 or gasoline. Its all a bunch of bullshit by the goverment.

We here in Minnesota/south dakota have been playing with e85 in blown app.s for the last three years and have made over 1300hp with it on street cars and this is at 2.30 a gallon. Also whoever said u need 41% u are wrong also. It takes roughly 28% more than gas to convert your vehicle to e85. We see gains of 70hp on 03 cobra mustang w/kennebell superchargers making 600to the tire.
The nice thing about e85 is it will repeat horsepower on the street all day long because of the alcohol/ethonal effect. Many people know that kennebells and whipples will heat soak and on gasoline on hot days your horsepower will be effected once the car has been run a long period of time.

So if u want to make over a thou to the tire u would need a fuel system capable of supporting 1300 hp. Even at the 30% more fuel burned e85 is still cheaper than burning race fuel and is more enviromentally friendly. U can also get e98 in the barrels and that is 114 octane.

Here are a couple of web site or if any one has any questions about e85 in a gt u can call this guy @ www.dynotuneusa.com or check out his other web site www.rune85.com

Later Dan
p.s the smell of it is great also and u cannot get e100 because it is consumable by mouth and is some potent shit. Trust me i have the connections to get it.
 
H

HHGT

Guest
There are 2 issues that are being discussed with E85, one is the political/economic, and the other is its possible use as a cheap(by the gallon) high performance fuel.

I think it would be helpful to differentiate the two

I have to disagree. If you want cheap high performance fuel, you can easily go to Sherwin Williams and buy tolulene as an additive to existing pump gas.
 

BlackICE

GT Owner
Nov 2, 2005
1,416
SF Bay Area in California
I have to disagree. If you want cheap high performance fuel, you can easily go to Sherwin Williams and buy tolulene as an additive to existing pump gas.

Have you tried it yet?

Pricing at SW
1 gal = $12.12/gal
5 gal = $7.57/gal
55 gal = $7.40gal

It is probably higher now these quotes are a little old.
 
H

HHGT

Guest
Have you tried it yet?

Pricing at SW
1 gal = $12.12/gal
5 gal = $7.57/gal
55 gal = $7.40gal

It is probably higher now these quotes are a little old.

I witnessed its use some time ago in 1965/66 mustangs and I can tell you it worked. For the money and in SoCal it was a cheap way to make higher Octane.
 

BlackICE

GT Owner
Nov 2, 2005
1,416
SF Bay Area in California
I witnessed its use some time ago in 1965/66 mustangs and I can tell you it worked. For the money and in SoCal it was a cheap way to make higher Octane.

I did the math a one time and race gas at the pump is cheaper without the need to mix and possibly spilling toluene on your paint! I do believe using toluene would be a more consistant product. Racing gas varies depending on brand and type as to the ideal A/F ratio. Toluene is always the same. With any change in fuel it would be prudent to recheck the A/F ratios with a WB O2 before pushing the car.

Hum, the choice of locating a SW store, or gas station with race gas while on the road, neither seem too appealing. I am sticking to cool-aid CA 91 octane and my measly 730 RWHP for everyday use.
 

ChipBeck

GT Owner
Staff member
Mark IV Lifetime
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Feb 13, 2006
5,783
Scottsdale, Arizona
More enviromentally friendly...not.

Chip
I don't know where u get your info from but e85 is 85% ethonal and 15% gasoline. HENSE THE E85. E85 is the best thing since race gas for supercharged and turbocharged cars. I don't care what u say the gasoline issue and situation is ****ed weather it is e85 or gasoline. Its all a bunch of bullshit by the goverment.

Even at the 30% more fuel burned e85 is still cheaper than burning race fuel and is more enviromentally friendly.

Dan,

You need to read more carefully. My post only concerned ethanol and never once did I mention E85. I am a Chevron dealer and I get my information from the Chevron Oil Company. The gasoline sold in Arizona is 15% ethanol and 85% petroleum. Ethanol, whether it's the 15% mixture added to gasoline or the 85% component of E85 is not more environmentally friendly than gasoline, in fact, it produces more greenhouse gas than conventional gasoline. The fact that E85 is an effective and cheap substitute for race fuel does nothing to change the fact that ethanol is an inferior motor fuel to 100% petroleum-based gasoline for every day driving. I stand by every word of my previous post.

Chip
 

B O N Y

MODERATOR & FGT OWNER
Mark IV Lifetime
Sep 5, 2005
12,110
Fresno, Ca.
Removed By Bony
 
Last edited:

t32b

Verde
Mark II Lifetime
Jul 21, 2007
432
Bay Area, CA
+1 Chip.
The whole E85 ecosystem is endothermic (as you note). Utter nonsense.
Political porkbarreling - and a population that falls for it.

Gentlemen,

Ethanol is bulls##t. It is more than just a failure, it's a disaster. It unquestionably takes more energy to produce it than the product makes. In addition, because it soaks up water like a sponge, it cannot be shipped, as gasoline is, through energy efficient pipelines. To transport it, ethanol must be trucked, burning up even more energy. We have in this country, offshore and onshore, billions of barrels of oil known to be available and accessible. Environmentalists morons and uneducated Americans have successfully prevented our tapping this most efficient energy resource. Instead, these well-meaning but economically and environmentally ignorant individuals have us stripping millions of acres for farmland, using nitrogen and pesticides on a massive scale, consuming billions of barrels of water annually, driving the price of every food stock from tortillas to prime beef to all-time record highs, and consuming ungodly amounts of energy, both electricity and diesel, to produce corn so we can turn it into an unstable, inefficient, and the inferior motor fuel. In energy as in everything else, if it makes sense, the free marketplace will do it. We have over 300 million people in this nation all looking for a better way to do everything. We have 535 arrogant elitists in Washington with egos so large that they think the 300 million people have missed the obvious solution to energy independence that they in their infinite wisdom can clearly see even though none of them has any experience in the energy business. Because their solution makes no economic sense and is therefore guaranteed to lose massive amounts of money, they jam it down our throats by force of law, tax us to subsidize it, making the boondoggle mandatory. For every gallon of gasoline produced with 15% ethanol Congress takes $.50 per gallon from US taxpayers and gives it to ethanol producers. The cost of this 15% ethanol blend is higher than the gasoline price would be without the ethanol so those same US taxpayers must pay more per gallon at the pump. THEN, because this 15% ethanol blend gives poorer mileage in your car you must fill up more often, burn more fuel, create more air pollution, and spend even more. And to cap it all off, repair costs of your vehicle will generally be greater because of the more corrosive nature of this fuel. Oh, and don't forget the 30% more each month you're spending at the grocery store because of this witches brew.

Politicians love to talk about, "The failure of the marketplace". I'm not sure there ever has been a failure of the marketplace but if that does occur, it's very rare. The failures of government however, are the norm. Our government has shackled our oil and energy companies that have over 100 years of experience with laws that make it illegal for them to produce and sell us energy in the most efficient manner possible. This is as idiotic as it would be to let a class of third-grade public school kids mandate to the Honda Motor Co. what kind of cars it should build and how it should build and distribute them. Every US citizen is paying a heavy price for our having let this happen.

Chip
Owner/Operator
Team CB Petroleum Properties, LLC
 

B O N Y

MODERATOR & FGT OWNER
Mark IV Lifetime
Sep 5, 2005
12,110
Fresno, Ca.
Gentlemen,

Ethanol is bulls##t. It is more than just a failure, it's a disaster. It unquestionably takes more energy to produce it than the product makes. In addition, because it soaks up water like a sponge, it cannot be shipped, as gasoline is, through energy efficient pipelines. To transport it, ethanol must be trucked, burning up even more energy. We have in this country, offshore and onshore, billions of barrels of oil known to be available and accessible. Environmentalists morons and uneducated Americans have successfully prevented our tapping this most efficient energy resource. Instead, these well-meaning but economically and environmentally ignorant individuals have us stripping millions of acres for farmland, using nitrogen and pesticides on a massive scale, consuming billions of barrels of water annually, driving the price of every food stock from tortillas to prime beef to all-time record highs, and consuming ungodly amounts of energy, both electricity and diesel, to produce corn so we can turn it into an unstable, inefficient, and the inferior motor fuel. In energy as in everything else, if it makes sense, the free marketplace will do it. We have over 300 million people in this nation all looking for a better way to do everything. We have 535 arrogant elitists in Washington with egos so large that they think the 300 million people have missed the obvious solution to energy independence that they in their infinite wisdom can clearly see even though none of them has any experience in the energy business. Because their solution makes no economic sense and is therefore guaranteed to lose massive amounts of money, they jam it down our throats by force of law, tax us to subsidize it, making the boondoggle mandatory. For every gallon of gasoline produced with 15% ethanol Congress takes $.50 per gallon from US taxpayers and gives it to ethanol producers. The cost of this 15% ethanol blend is higher than the gasoline price would be without the ethanol so those same US taxpayers must pay more per gallon at the pump. THEN, because this 15% ethanol blend gives poorer mileage in your car you must fill up more often, burn more fuel, create more air pollution, and spend even more. And to cap it all off, repair costs of your vehicle will generally be greater because of the more corrosive nature of this fuel. Oh, and don't forget the 30% more each month you're spending at the grocery store because of this witches brew.

Politicians love to talk about, "The failure of the marketplace". I'm not sure there ever has been a failure of the marketplace but if that does occur, it's very rare. The failures of government however, are the norm. Our government has shackled our oil and energy companies that have over 100 years of experience with laws that make it illegal for them to produce and sell us energy in the most efficient manner possible. This is as idiotic as it would be to let a class of third-grade public school kids mandate to the Honda Motor Co. what kind of cars it should build and how it should build and distribute them. Every US citizen is paying a heavy price for our having let this happen.

Chip
Owner/Operator
Team CB Petroleum Properties, LLC

Have to agree with you. Your 100% spot on. Meanwhile, as the basic crop prices increase the ethanol companies find themselves in a huge squeeze.

I did buy PACIFIC ETHANOL, when it was Fresno based and sold it the day that principals sold huge blocks. It was an excellent short term trade.

Meanwhile, Dr. Walter Loscutoff, a member of our Rotary Club has been doing expert witness work against ethanol. Ethanol destroys rubber automotive fittings and has been determined to be the cause of car fires.