Disappointing DynoJet test: GMS coil packs, K&N filters

[632C2]

Assuming that the cams are the problem, it will be interesting to see how many people elect to have them replaced since this will require pulling the motor.

Steve

 

[Accufab]

The cam swap is quite a task and it does require pulling the engine. I guess that the test results will dictate who might be interested in such a swap. It is quite a pain in the ass and I am not looking forward to doing many others. I will post the results when the testing is done.

John Mihovetz
Accufab Inc

 

[Justin@VMP]

In certain instances, these type coils will help when the spark is blowing out due to boost. That's not what is happening on the GT's. It appears to me that most on this site are either being mislead or assuming that the spark is blowing out based on dyno curves. What is actually happening is a valvetrain control issue (lack of control). It cannot be cured with plug gap, coils or any other tuning or spark amplifiers. If the valve isn't closed on time nothing else matters and tuning can make it a little better but that's all.

The only cure is to change the cams or get used to the problem. I will be conducting engine dyno testing in the upcoming weeks for a Muscle Mustangs story that will cover the details of this as well as new cams, testing a prototype Kenne Bell blower as well as the Whipple 3.3. I will post the information as soon as we are done testing.

John Mihovetz
Accufab Inc

Will you be conduction testing with an EEC-5 as the control system or another module?

 

[californiacuda]

Do the coil on plug systems work better than an old fashion coil, spark plug wires, msd box. And, yes I realize the GT's and most other more modern cars are cop or some derivititve. But I was just wondering on a very high performance/boosted aluminum hemi engine, would cop have any advantages?

 

[freeflyer]

That all depends on the RPM of the motor, as well as how much boost your running. The cop only has to worry about firing that one plug/cycle, where as a traditional system has to charge and discharge one coil for every cylinder. If your not having any spark issues now then the cop system most likely will be no benefit.

 

[SLF360]

Interesting, and thank you for reporting the actual runs!:thumbsup

I changed to the K&N's with the Musclemotor accufab throttle body kit. Now I believe, changing back from K&N's to the original filters, might be a good thing and show better performance. When you change to the K&N's with the bigger throttlebody, there is no such negative idle or other issue to be seen. I never was a big fan of the K&N's, so believe going back to an actual bigger surface filterset, should show better throttle response !

We'll see...

 

[632C2]

Interesting, and thank you for reporting the actual runs!:thumbsup

I changed to the K&N's with the Musclemotor accufab throttle body kit. Now I believe, changing back from K&N's to the original filters, might be a good thing and show better performance. When you change to the K&N's with the bigger throttlebody, there is no such negative idle or other issue to be seen. I never was a big fan of the K&N's, so believe going back to an actual bigger surface filterset, should show better throttle response !

We'll see...

My pleasure! Based on what I saw, the stock filters should help you out. I have heard from a number of forum members with the K&N's and some reported idle problems and others didn't. One thing for sure is that the stock filters out flow the K&N's.

I would highly suggest putting an A/F device in your car to monitor your A/F numbers under boost. You might be surprised what you see.

Steve

 

[Shadowman]

I was asked to come here on behalf of an advertiser MMP - Please direct all purchases and inquiries to them at sales@musclemotors.com

http://www.fordgtforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4236&highlight=granatelli

the Granatelli coils in 2v 3v and 4v form have been tested repeatedly and the results 99% of the time show marked improvements. Historically the more power the engine is capable of making the more they usually gain with the GMS coil packs. As an example a car like this GT40 should gain power just by getting rid of the spring connectors

These ropes do most of the magic. While MSD and Accel have recently launched "hi power" coils neither can claim a REAL number because they really do not output more energy like the GMS coils. And even if a company can figure out the proper way to wind the coil like the GMS coils they can't fire the coil if they must use the stock spring. Since Granatelli and Micro-tech have the patent on the Stainless Rope with the "magic donut" it makes it hard for others to up the anty on the coils.

In other words, I have a great example. Did anyone ever notice that when they moved their battery to the truck and then ran wimpy wires back to the front of the engine that 2 things happened?
1. The wires get real hot when you crank the engine over
2. When the engine is warm the battery can’t crank the engine and it ultimately kills the starter and the battery. This is because the small wires CAN NOT carry the amperage and energy the distance of the car. The same theory applies to the coils via the tiny wire that comes from FORD. If you try to fire a 60,000 volt coil through the factory wire it does nothing and ultimately fries other parts. In short, our coils move darn near 3 times the power and energy of a factory coil and wire. If your engine does not gain power then you either have a great stock set up which is definitely the exception not the rule or something else is changing in the dynamic.

It is like putting ½ fuel line on a 100hp Focus. It still won’t pick up power. But add a big turbo and the bigger parts are a must to achieve the best end result

While this post may come off like a sales pitch - It was truly intended to address the questions raised as it relates to GMS coils for your Ford GT

Well; certainly a sales pitch nevertheless the information shared is appreciated.

Your comparative analogies such as the trunk mounted battery were interesting and yet at least one real time test was completed by a Forum member and after numerous dyno pulls the results showed less than stellar as such he reverted back to the OEM coils.

Now I understand very well the use of alternate wire size; the coil wrap aka stainless rope with the magic donut design all for the purpose of eliminating resistance during the process of moving energy (electricity/voltage) however bigger or an alternate path only plays a role if the existing is less that efficient.

I am sure that you have a wonderful product and that there are applications where it is of significant benefit however as I recall in addition to the person I mentioned above there have been others that have tested the coils initially believing that spark wash was occurring under the more extreme boost and higher RPM ranges only to find out that this was not the case. Simply because it is a wonderful patented product does not mean it offers a benefit for a particular application such as the GT.

I for one look forward to great performance products; particularly if they serve a measurable purpose however in this case I think that the Jury has spoken with regards to the present GSM coils being offered for the GT and there have been no recordable benefits seen. In fact at least one of the extreme TT setups reverted back to OEM coils too.

If this were to change I would quickly move to the front of the line however until this happens I feel that the OEM coils work as designed with no issues.

I am sorry for the counter to your sales pitch however it is easy for folks to fall prey to paper power gains and sadly far too many products are sold on this basis.

In closing; this is only my opinion based on data points received from others that have used the GSM coils on their GT; certainly not based on my personal experience with these coils.

Regards

Shadowman

 

[632C2]

Shadowman pretty much hit the nail on the head here with this excellent response.

Steve

 

[Accufab]

We will be running the engine with a MOTEC ecu. As for the coil on plugs, the theory is good, the results just have not shown up yet.

John Mihovetz
Accufab Inc

 

[Shadowman]

:rofl - How was it a sales pitch? I was merely addressing the questions and tried to give examples to were easily understandable

You lost me on this - If you take the words of John Mihovetz as gospel then following his example that it may be in the valvetrain negates any benefit the coils will add until you he fixes the other issue - that was my only point. (Here is another example) If you have valve float a bigger fuel pump won't fix it so why would the coils. All this test confirmed was the coils are not the issue.

The stock coils output 22kv and the Granatelli Coils output 60kv.

it is wrong to pigeon hole all GT's into this category especially after the above attached video shows a marked improvement and Stage 6 TT GT also showed great gains

Is the glass half full or half empty?:eek I think we all agree that the Granatelli coils do not fix valve float. Likewise it is agreed that the Ford GT in the video picked up power as did the Stage 6 car as have 100's of others. If a customer is not happy with the coils we will always take them back assuming they are not damaged. Also to install our coils in the past required that the polarity be reversed - I wonder if this was done properly for the test

YA just like the stock stereo and tires but guys always want more.:biggrin


Thanks for the chance to help - and thanks to MMP for letting me know about this site. If I still had my car I would be a lot more.

Yes I tend to ramble however my primary message was "regardless of how much more spark they produce and whether or if they are a better design is only interesting "IF" they produce consistent measurable results across the board"

I considered responding to some of your comments such as “LOL” valve float and the lack of cause and affect but rather I decided the benefit of such line items responses would serve no purpose. Furthermore you seemed upset at my response and then proceeded to become very defensive with your replies. To this I might suggest that you relax and not take what I shared personally as it simply my opinion was based on feed back as received from others that have (yes with their eyes open) tried the coils only to find that they offered nothing for the GT. You made mention of Joe’s gal; he may have them however I was informed that at least one of the extreme TT gals tried them and then went back to OEM. Furthermore I do not think that John aka AccuFab said that your coils did not work because of the OEM cam profile but rather I think he shared that the issue as seen on various dyno sheets had nothing to do with the OEM coils breaking down but rather the cam profile.

There are numerous OEM systems that (as you know) are woefully weak as such companies such as your’s, MSD, etc. do a wonderful job of designing and marketing a fix. However in the case of the GT the OEM system as designed and installed appears to work very well; so much so that adding your system offered no measurable gains.

Now certainly if standing in a crowd I could say my coils are better than yours (akin to a lapel pin) but at the 1320 mark would it have made a difference; I do not think so.

In closing it is never my desire to discourage or frustrate the sharing of new products or ideas however when one does so it must be expected that many will question and in doing so attempt to separate the facts from the hype.

As I shared in my last reply; your product is likely awesome but it does not appear to be needed by the folks with the GT. Is it wrong to share this; no in fact if anything it is important for this information to be shared so that folks are not once again “drawn to the light”

Regards

Shadowman

 

[Accufab]

The Motec dyno harness that I have and will be using on this test uses MSD individual coils. Something that I know has worked without fail for me up to 2000 hp on this same dyno. It is possible to test these coils, however a new harness to drive the coils will need to be made. If Granatelli is willing to step up and pay for the harness changes and provide the coils, we will test them along with the other things we are testing. I will add that this test will not be exactly how the coils would perform in the car though because we will be firing them with a Motec CDI ignition which is significantly stronger than what is on the car. But at the power level we will be testing at, if the coils work the results should be noteworthy.

Thanks

John Mihovetz
Accufab Inc

 

[tmcphail]

For the record My TTGT and Joe's currently employ the stock coils with the Granatelli inserts.

 

[632C2]

Also to install our coils in the past required that the polarity be reversed - I wonder if this was done properly for the test

I am really thick-skinned when it comes to a manufacturer questioning my abilities because I have to put myself in your shoes. You have no idea of who you are dealing with and what their experience level is. Let me just say that of all the mods I have performed on my GT, this was by far the easiest. I have made almost 60 DynoJet runs (on this car) with the power starting out around 520 rwhp and progressing up to this level and even a little beyond - with the 3.25" pulley. All modifications were done solely by myself. So, yes the polarity reversal was done properly for the test. Your instructions are quite clear. Other than changing plug gap, I'm not sure what else I could have done to maximize the power with your coils.

Let's not lose sight that these units are not worse than the stock ones. They really didn't lose any power and all the runs were very close to each other - certainly within the 1% repeatability window.

Tony said that he would be glad to get the one coil fixed and returned to me. He then said that these work real well on Mustangs so I just decided to GIVE the coils to Tony and let him do with them what he wants. Tony is very generous with his time and I felt it was the least I could do for him.


Steve

 

[californiacuda]

I think that Shadowman is alluding to the scientific process concerning ideas and inventions. A claim is made with supporting documents and evidence. The claim is then reviewed and repeated for verification. If the new product or idea works, than technology marches forward.

I don't think your products increased spark capability is being questioned, only if when it is used in our application, does it produce an appreciable performance increase.

The testing that has been done so far does not support power increase.

Please don't give up, rather than arguing, prove your product with logical and repeatable testing procedures.

 

[Shadowman]

I think that Shadowman is alluding to the scientific process concerning ideas and inventions. A claim is made with supporting documents and evidence. The claim is then reviewed and repeated for verification. If the new product or idea works, than technology marches forward.

I don't think your products increased spark capability is being questioned, only if when it is used in our application, does it produce an appreciable performance increase.

The testing that has been done so far does not support power increase.

Please don't give up, rather than arguing, prove your product with logical and repeatable testing procedures.

Well said

Please keep this thread for placement of future data as ongoing testing is completed.

All the best

Shadowman