Carbon Fiber Airbox?


Gulf GT

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Feb 9, 2006
1,539
California
I was talking to Jack at Muscle Motors today about a carbon fiber airbox. Has anyone seen or designed a larger carbon fiber airbox that would get enough air in that would allow us to lose the MAFia and get our stock gauge to work all in one smooth change? Jack offered to design one if we had enough interest. A design that would replace the flexible air inlet support with a rigid carbon fiber version that tapers out to a larger box also making the various air inlet supports unnecessary. Seems like it would solve several problems at once.
 
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MAD IN NC

Proud Owner/ BOD blah bla
Mark IV Lifetime
Feb 14, 2006
4,219
North Carolina
sounds truly interesting! More info......:thumbsup
 
Aug 25, 2006
4,436
What does the air box have to do with the need for a Mafia; NONE.

Now having shared this could an alternate air box be a cool boutique piece; certainly however to reiterate the air box style and size has NADA to do with the need for the Mafia. The Mafia is a pre-set fixed position voltage scaler for the MAF and when one installs a smaller pulley or the big Whipple the air flow through the MAF is increased as such it becomes pegged ....meaning the MAF reaches the limits of its voltage sweep prior to the gal being at the end of her power curve at which point the PCM can no longer properly manage the engines fuel and timing hence the potential for KABOOOM.

Sorry to ramble; I must have missed something because air box size and style and Mafia have no cause and effect.

I should also share that carbon fiber and the resins within do not play well with extreme heat and with most of these gals with the AccuFab, Hefner, IDA, etc all have more than modest heat in the area of the air box so I would be concerned. In the past we have known of (sadly) more than one gal (not GT's) that melted to the ground when the carbon fiber air box became heat soaked and then subsequently erupted into flames.

Takes care

Shadowman
 
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Gulf GT

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Feb 9, 2006
1,539
California
In the past we have known of (sadly) more than one gal (not GT's) that melted to the ground when the carbon fiber air box became heat soaked and then subsequently erupted into flames.

Takes care

Shadowman

So are you saying the extremely popular Tubi air boxes are a danger to the Gallardo's and 430's, or that we have much more heat in the engine bay than them? (separate issue than sensor). It sounds like you're saying they cause a fire on them. I had not heard they were that dangerous. They sure sell the hell out of em.
 
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canibl

GT Owner
Nov 22, 2005
446
Sacramento, Cali
Under the fire extinguisher thread, it was spoken of engine bay temperatures below 300F...I believe that any carbon fiber piece should be produced according certain standards....A Formula One car is basically all carbon fiber but it never catches on fire because of the extreme heat...but I should also mentionthat good engineering, air flow, and aerodynamics help in this aspect.
 

Gulf GT

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Feb 9, 2006
1,539
California
I should also share that carbon fiber and the resins within do not play well with extreme heat and with most of these gals with the AccuFab, Hefner, IDA, etc all have more than modest heat in the area of the air box so I would be concerned.

Don't these exhausts have "humps" that reach up close to the air box? Maybe that particular exhaust design could have a problem with heating the air boxes? I have the FRPP rear exit header system, so it doesn't seem to me like there would be any problem with heat soaking the air boxes in my car. My garage used to be like a sauna an hour after driving my Diablo 6.0, but not with my GT (Tubi exhaust with test pipes). With the GT I hardly notice any change in the temperature of the garage an hour after a drive. I know that isn't some technical "tour de force" research, but it's been a very noticeable change. I did leave a message for a good friend of mine that is the U.S. factory service rep for Lamborghini to see if there have been any problems reported with aftermarket carbon fiber air boxes catching fire. The factory reps are pretty tough on aftermarket products and don't particularly like them much, so he'll likely know about any events. He was the factory rep for Ferrari for 20 years also, so he'll know about that side as well. I'll post what he says.
 

AMB

GT Owner
Aug 29, 2005
401
San Diego,Ca.
Carbon Fiber Airbox

A larger inlet/MAF will let you be able to run higher boost/HP without using the MAFia. You would need a new tune also. I would think you also need larger inlets for the top of the airbox too.

AMB
 

Gulf GT

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Feb 9, 2006
1,539
California
My friend who has been Lamborghini's factory rep for 6 years and was Ferrari's for 20 years before that told me today that he had never heard of a Lamborghini catching fire due to a carbon fiber air box. He had also not heard of a Ferrari either, but would check with Ferrari's factory service rep the next chance he gets. He did say that some of the carbon fiber components that are of lesser quality and manufactured at lower temperatures might warp in certain circumstances, thus screwing up the functioning of an air box.
 
Aug 25, 2006
4,436
So are you saying the extremely popular Tubi air boxes are a danger to the Gallardo's and 430's, or that we have much more heat in the engine bay than them? (separate issue than sensor). It sounds like you're saying they cause a fire on them. I had not heard they were that dangerous. They sure sell the hell out of em.

NO; what I shared is that I am aware of carbon fiber boxes that have melted down and in sharing this made mention of no Marquee.

I also made mention of a few types of exhaust that by design have a higher close proximity radiant heat factor when compared to the OEM muffler because of the lack of heat shields. BTW many race cars are built out of and use extensive carbon fiber and other composite materials however they all run full scale fire suppression system not because of the if but rather the when there is a fire. Furthermore the composite usage begins from day one of the design rather than being an add-on or after the fact consideration as such heat factors are recognized and then systems and components are designed and integrated accordingly. In the case of removing an OEM air box from any Marquee and then simply replacing it with a carbon fiber piece has risk that if recognized in advance can be mitigated and in some cases eliminated; all I share it that they should not be overlooked.

So can a carbon fiber box be designed that would work and look stellar; IMO absolutely as such I made mention of it being a cool boutique piece.

Now as for the air box being able to eliminate the need for the Mafia or similar device; let me rephrase my answer. The air box has no affect on the need for the Mafia however the MAF does. Now considering that the MAF is installed into the opening of the OEM air box then the bore size could certainly be changed however changing the bore size while still using the OEM MAF will likely not solve the problem instead what would be needed is an alternate MAF designed to work with the air flow changes resulting from the increased bore size. The MAF has a predetermined voltage sweep that is associated with the air flow across it as such if you increase the air flow over the OEM MAF the MAF’s ability to properly manage the engine management system becomes skewed at best and as shared earlier will likely cause the OEM MAF to reach it’s designed operating limit before the gal has found the end of her power curve.

Here is one very good example; TonY G and the team at HP Performance do NOT use an OEM MAF on Joe’s extreme TT gal and maybe none of their TT systems because the additional air flow requirements for that gal exceeded the OEM MAF’s ability to properly manage the engines systems.

So it is not an air box question but rather a MAF question and then at the end of the day it would become a personal judgment call; does one use a Mafia which is a simplistic plug and play setup or does one elect to integrate an alternate MAF and then create a entirely need table for it based on the needs of your gal; in the case of the TT there was no option.

Takes care

Shadowman
 

Gulf GT

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Feb 9, 2006
1,539
California
NO; what I shared is that I am aware of carbon fiber boxes that have melted down and in sharing this made mention of no Marquee.

Actually, I think you said they "erupted into flames"; however, you did not mention a specific marquee, and since you didn't, I am left with researching the level of danger involved. When I hear you say they have "erupted into flames" I get very concerned, so I have no choice but to do my own research to determine the extent of the danger since you didn't provide specifics. I focused on late model mid-engine Ferraris and Lamborghinis because they are the most common users of aftermarket carbon fiber air boxes with a similar engine layout to the GT. Look, I'm not trying to piss you off; I am just trying to understand the situation you presented, that is all. Please don't take offense.

As far as the MAFia stuff, I disagree, but I don’t think it’s the proper time to explain why. With that said, I do appreciate your input. I don’t claim to be the world’s expert on cars as I am sure you don’t either, just having fun playing around with them. It’s totally OK if we disagree, and I for one am not always right every time.
 
Aug 25, 2006
4,436
Actually, I think you said they "erupted into flames"; however, you did not mention a specific marquee, and since you didn't, I am left with researching the level of danger involved. When I hear you say they have "erupted into flames" I get very concerned, so I have no choice but to do my own research to determine the extent of the danger since you didn't provide specifics. I focused on late model mid-engine Ferraris and Lamborghinis because they are the most common users of aftermarket carbon fiber air boxes with a similar engine layout to the GT. Look, I'm not trying to piss you off; I am just trying to understand the situation you presented, that is all. Please don't take offense.

As far as the MAFia stuff, I disagree, but I don’t think it’s the proper time to explain why. With that said, I do appreciate your input. I don’t claim to be the world’s expert on cars as I am sure you don’t either, just having fun playing around with them. It’s totally OK if we disagree, and I for one am not always right every time.

No worries; I have very thick skin and do not mind contrary comments or opinions, in fact I enjoy them more as it creates a cause for me to think. I do my best to share based on real time experience as such there far more that I do not know when compared to that which I do.

Now as for carbon fiber boxes and the risk of melt downs; all I can say is be careful and doing so consider the fact that even today the molded vents in the clamshell have been found to distort from the heat within the engine bay.

However with regard to the idea of dropping the Mafia and being able to rely on the OEM MAF by simply placing it within a larger volume air box; I am “ALL” ears as if this is plausible I would truly enjoy hearing how because I for one would quickly drop the Mafia out of the system.

Again no offense taken and in fact nary a feather was ruffled. I truly enjoy your comments and all that you bring to the Forum.

Thank you

Shadowman
 

06gt1858

GT Owner
Jan 29, 2007
154
Lodi Ca.
No worries; I have very thick skin and do not mind contrary comments or opinions, in fact I enjoy them more as it creates a cause for me to think. I do my best to share based on real time experience as such there far more that I do not know when compared to that which I do.

Now as for carbon fiber boxes and the risk of melt downs; all I can say is be careful and doing so consider the fact that even today the molded vents in the clamshell have been found to distort from the heat within the engine bay.

However with regard to the idea of dropping the Mafia and being able to rely on the OEM MAF by simply placing it within a larger volume air box; I am “ALL” ears as if this is plausible I would truly enjoy hearing how because I for one would quickly drop the Mafia out of the system.

Again no offense taken and in fact nary a feather was ruffled. I truly enjoy your comments and all that you bring to the Forum.

Thank you

Shadowman

I am not an exspert but I think shadow is spot on here.
"The MAFia provides real world plug and play control of your vehicles "Mass Air Meter",(MAF). MAFia allows you to precisely control and regulate MAF sensor voltage eliminating the need for prefabricated custom MAF Sensors".

The key words being VOLTAGE & CUSTOM....... They are widley used in aircraft racing engines with the new austrian drysump motors that use computer controlled engine management , not because of a smog issues but for the abilty to adjust fuel to air flow affecting "burn characteristics" burning all possible fuel with less fuel sluff off = more HP. All this Acording to a highly respected part of the crew that keeps me in the air safely...........

I would be intrested as well to see how the stock MAF could handle the metering process when maxed out beyond its range? I am allways willing to learn... This forum is a world of wealth for info......:thumbsup

Thanks
 
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fjpikul

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Jan 4, 2006
11,717
Belleville, IL
Shadow, the molded vents in the clamshell are not carbon-fiber FYI. While they have distorted, I think much of it was due to to installation problems at Saleen, mostly not being snugged down tight enough. Double sided tape was added to some of the top vents in the later production cars. As well, the carbon fiber lining the clamshell is monolayer.
 
Aug 25, 2006
4,436
Shadow, the molded vents in the clamshell are not carbon-fiber FYI. While they have distorted, I think much of it was due to to installation problems at Saleen, mostly not being snugged down tight enough. Double sided tape was added to some of the top vents in the later production cars. As well, the carbon fiber lining the clamshell is monolayer.


Good evening

All I can say is that when I placed my first comments I truly never meant to spin this thread around but rather I only wanted to offer some comments based on real time experience.

As for the clamshell vents; I have no idea of what they are made; I suspect an injection molded plastic. All I was sharing is that some had experienced distortion. Now even on this I can not share that it was as the result of heat because I had no such personal experience; in this case I was simply sharing what I have heard and the results seen.

Folks; as I shared, I have “NO” doubt that a BADASS carbon fiber air box can be made that will look stellar. I am also confident that it can be done and work with the heat as generated within the engine bay. All I was attempting to share is that I was made aware of (I did not want to mention the Marquee) two Porsche GT2's that went by the way side as the result of poorly designed carbon fiber air boxes. BTW these were produced by a very well known company and it remains my understanding that they did not offer to participate in the cost to replace the damage caused. It was as the direct result of this information; in fact the phone call that I received after it happened that even though I had a new carbon fiber air box assembly sitting on my shelf ready to be installed on my Gallardo I decided that any risk was too great. It then sat on the shelf collecting dust for the better part of a year until finally I sold it with full knowledge and my feelings being shared at a loss.

Now back to the MAF and the need or maybe lack thereof of a Mafia or one such device with a redesigned air box if a smaller pulley or Whipple is installed.

A MAF is designed to produce a variable voltage signal based on the air flowing over/past it nothing more or less. It does so in the same way as the electric water or oil temperature/pressure sending units send a variable voltage signal to the PCM/DME/ECU with the only significant difference being the medium that is being measured; water, oil, or air flow. The MAF sensitivity is based on the normal operational parameters of a specific vehicle; for example a 2000cc 4 cylinder engine would have a MAF designed to operate with the exact same voltage sweep as our 5.4ltr GT motor however the air flow requirements to produce a given voltage signal based on the air flow over and past it would be substantially different based on the size of engine and the induction system design of these two examples. We install larger alternate size MAF’s all the time because as we alter the air flow demands of the engine often times we also change in fact many times exceed the ability for the OEM MAF to produce a voltage signal that correlates with the engines operational requirements.

In any case; the voltage signal as created by the MAF is then used by the PCM/DME/ECM or whatever you call it to tell the various engine management systems such as fuel and timing what to do; for example the greater the voltage typically results in a greater injector duty cycle however this is only one of the many variables that can come into play based on the MAF signal. Regardless the MAF has a minimum and maximum voltage operating range and once this is peaked even through the engine may increase (for example) in RPM since the voltage signal to the PCM/DME/ECU no longer can increase the result is that the engine will typically go lean and hence the reason I shared the risk for “KABOOM”.

Now the Mafia; as I shared is a fix position voltage scalar; meaning you can not isolate and do cell aka map table or operational grid tweaking as it has predetermined maps integrated into it based on what Diablo predetermined would work for a very broad audience; all you do is turn the knob to the one that best suits your needs. Once you select one of the many rescaled voltage options built into it and then with in being placed in-between the OEM MAF and the PCM/DME/ECU it sends a false or better put, a modified voltage signal to the PCM/DME/ECU. For example even though the MAF maybe be sending a 3.0volt signal out the Mafia as scaled may only be sending a 2.0volt signal to the PCM/DME/ECU as such which is the critical area when the MAF is pegged at 5.0volt the Mafia can still have created additional operating range for the PCM/DME/ECU as such the fuel and timing tables within the PCM/DME/ECU can not only be adjusted accordingly but continue to properly manage based on the engines demands and not the limits of the MAF. Then what happens is the folks that twist and tweak the various fuel and timing tables (develop the software) create a new association between a given voltage and the resulting operation commanded by the PCM/DME/ECU.

Now it has been shared by some that by redesigning the air box the Mafia can be eliminated; certainly I still remain all ears however based on what I have come to know over the years this concept does not seem to reside on the same page as the required usage of the Mafia or some such device because in OEM trim the gal will take a given breath, move a measure amount of air, install a smaller pulley she will take a larger breath hence move a larger but still measured amount of air and then install the Whipple and she will take an even larger breath hence move even more and yet still a measured amount of air because unlike a N/A motor that relies on vacuum a FI gal has her holes packed with air and fuel so no matter how one redesigns the air box the resulting movement of air has nothing to do with the box design (unless she is gasping for air because of lack of flow which is not the case) but rather the air demand beginning drawn into and pressed into the gal based on the pulley and or supercharger selection.

So once again I ramble but in the end hopefully made some sense.

Now in closing I reiterate; “PLEASE” by all means show me the error of my ways with regards to the MAF and how tweaking the air box can possibly eliminate the Mafia or one such device. I not only would be very grateful because I enjoy learning but I would also consider approaching some of my other projects differently.

You folks are the best

Takes care

Shadowman
 
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freeflyer

GT Owner/ Forum Sponsor
Mark IV Lifetime
Jan 12, 2007
180
Montana
Just a little input here.... The stock MAF in our cars does not actually peg per say. The stock MAF can actually read up to 12v but the computer has a 5v input limit. Just adding to the mix... Have at it.
Michael
 

AMB

GT Owner
Aug 29, 2005
401
San Diego,Ca.
MAF/MAFia

The advantage of a larger MAF over using a MAFia is that in the TUNE, you only have to recalibrate the MAF voltage; and in using the MAFia, you have to recalibrate the MAF voltage AND other things, witch makes the BOOST gauge UNCALIBRATED.

AMB
 
Aug 25, 2006
4,436
Just a little input here.... The stock MAF in our cars does not actually peg per say. The stock MAF can actually read up to 12v but the computer has a 5v input limit. Just adding to the mix... Have at it.
Michael


Thank you Michael the information is appreciated and well received

All the best

Shadowman
 
Aug 25, 2006
4,436
The advantage of a larger MAF over using a MAFia is that in the TUNE, you only have to recalibrate the MAF voltage; and in using the MAFia, you have to recalibrate the MAF voltage AND other things, witch makes the BOOST gauge UNCALIBRATED.

AMB


Thank you AMB this remains my understaning as well.

All the best

Shadowman
 

Gulf GT

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Feb 9, 2006
1,539
California
Simply put, having a larger diameter mass air housing allows more CFM of airflow in, and allows the mass air sensor to read accordingly. This allows the gauge to work properly, it will just peg at 15 (this is where freeflyer’s gauge comes in). Here is a picture of a stainless housing that been tested and is currently used on Whipple supercharged cars at 17 & 19 pounds of boost on the street. No MAFia, no issues. It may not be pretty, but it’s fully functional. Also, if the concept applies in stainless then it certainly applies in carbon fiber.
 

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Aug 25, 2006
4,436
Simply put, having a larger diameter mass air housing allows more CFM of airflow in, and allows the mass air sensor to read accordingly. This allows the gauge to work properly, it will just peg at 15 (this is where freeflyer’s gauge comes it). Here is a picture of a stainless housing that been tested and is currently used on Whipple supercharged cars at 17 & 19 pounds of boost on the street. No MAFia, no issues. It may not be pretty, but it’s fully functional. Also, if the concept applies in stainless then it certainly applies in carbon fiber.


Thank you

Shadowman