BJ discussion


427Aggie

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Aug 18, 2005
885
Frisco, Tx
Hell we have been talking about it for 3 years...

Remember the GT500E that sold for 450,000 about 3 years ago..this is the Unique car. Funny but it ended up right back in their showroom the next week for sale :frown :willy

Wonder how that happens
 

Empty Pockets

ex-GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Oct 18, 2006
1,362
Washington State
Now that all this is "out" on the 'net, 'wundur whut th' odds makers in 'Vegas will say about the B/J bein' slightly down next year?
 

B O N Y

MODERATOR & FGT OWNER
Mark IV Lifetime
Sep 5, 2005
12,110
Fresno, Ca.
well.... to throw some more gasoline on the fire,... how many cars that are consigned are accepted from dealers who are generally know to run puppy mills that counterfeit cars. this problem is boiling under the surface. this year at B-J the cars that really brought top dollar where known cars, the Vettes had NCRS recent documentation, Fords had Marti reports and ownership history, MoPars had inspection reports from Govier.

my favorite line on the window sheets is 'restored to NCRS specifications' which is the same as when I tell folks that I am working with my trainer to become a tight rope walker. Yup, I have a trainer, and that is my goal, except I don't think I'll be crossing the Grand Canyon or anyone else in this lifetime.

I have been going to B-J when Jackson ran it with Craig's dad and deceased older brother. It was a collector car auction, today a lifestyle show.


The rule of thumb used to a hot rod just completed would recover 60% of build cost, same for a clone. Not anymore. Great rods with history such as Oakland Roadster Show, Riddler will hold money. Clones will crash down to
the formula mentioned. Counterfeits are not worth what the original car was that they were built up from.

Lots of people are having a bad day today, Craig Jackson heads the list.
 

Empty Pockets

ex-GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Oct 18, 2006
1,362
Washington State
How about Palm Beach in a few months ?


IMHO, this'll depend on how WIDE all the above info is known by then. One would THINK "P.B." will be affected negatively, since the 'net "spreads the word" instantly - accurate or not.
 
Aug 25, 2006
4,436
How about Palm Beach in a few months ?

Certainly I would like to believe that the information as shared is biased and completely wrong however for several years the conversations had with my associates as well as my gut has told me otherwise. I had one such associate share that this year Craig appeared much like a “cat that just swallowed the canary” throughout the process.

So IMO sadly, even with this information being brought public I suspect that we will see what is akin to "moths being draw to the light". If for no other reason then the big players will be doing all they can to cloak the information or at the very least quietly do a Spin Doctor routine so that they have a few more strong events to roll out of some of the gals that they have letting others retain them while sitting back to see how and when the dust settles (and it will we have been down this road before) at which time like vultures they will swoop in on the prey which in this case will be market adjusted values having been placed on the gals.

I went through the Exotic Car hoopla many years ago when it was the norm to have at least one Ferrari or ? in your financial portfolio. This was a discouraging time because far too many people with no passion for the gals yet plenty of disposable cash purchased them believing them to be wonderful financial investments aka inflation hedges.

With very few exception most lost their proverbial ass and those truly passionate about the gals found them back on the market at prices which not only made sense but also stimulated the desire and ability for the exercising of the gals.

The number of gals that went into storage only to be removed many years later having never been driven was phenomenal and during this process far too many deteriorated as the result of lack of being used. Gaskets, seals, tires, belts, hoses, brake fluid contamination, etc…… the list of storage related damage was extreme and the associated cost many times exceeded the value of the gals as the result of the significant downward market adjustment. A few such examples are the Ferrari 512 BB and the Lamborghini Countach.

Within the GT owners manual it discourages such a storage practice with the warning that if not used for (as I recall 3 years) the oil pump drive belt “MUST” be replaced because the lack of use with likely cause it to fail.

All I can say is “BT BARNUM” appears to be alive and well and in this situation the roaming wagon used during days gone past has been replaced with a Circus tent.

I think a moral of the story is “purchase want you like at a value that makes sense to you with little regard to what others say, feel, think, and even more importantly do not purchase based on what you have been told it might be worth someday”. I for one have never experienced someday however I clearly remember yesterday and am enjoying today.

Takes care

Shadowman
 
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B O N Y

MODERATOR & FGT OWNER
Mark IV Lifetime
Sep 5, 2005
12,110
Fresno, Ca.
Certainly I would like to believe that the information as shared is biased and completely wrong however for several years the conversations had with my associates as well as my gut has told me otherwise. I had one such associate share that this year Craig appeared much like a “cat that just swallowed the canary” throughout the process.

So IMO sadly, even with this information being brought public I suspect that we will see what is akin to "moths being draw to the light". If for no other reason then the big players will be doing all they can to cloak the information or at the very least quietly do a Spin Doctor routine so that they have a few more strong events to roll out of some of the gals that they have letting others retain them while sitting back to see how and when the dust settles (and it will we have been down this road before) at which time like vultures they will swoop in on the prey which in this case will be market adjusted values having been placed on the gals.

I went through the Exotic Car hoopla many years ago when it was the norm to have at least one Ferrari or ? in your financial portfolio. This was a discouraging time because far too many people with no passion for the gals yet plenty of disposable cash purchased them believing them to be wonderful financial investments aka inflation hedges.

With very few exception most lost their proverbial ass and those truly passionate about the gals found them back on the market at prices which not only made sense but also stimulated the desire and ability for the exercising of the gals.

The number of gals that went into storage only to be removed many years later having never been driven was phenomenal and during this process far too many deteriorated as the result of lack of being used. Gaskets, seals, tires, belts, hoses, brake fluid contamination, etc…… the list of storage related damage was extreme and the associated cost many times exceeded the value of the gals as the result of the significant downward market adjustment. A few such examples are the Ferrari 512 BB and the Lamborghini Countach.

Within the GT owners manual it discourages such a storage practice with the warning that if not used for (as I recall 3 years) the oil pump drive belt “MUST” be replaced because the lack of use with likely cause it to fail.

All I can say is “BT BARNUM” appears to be alive and well and in this situation the roaming wagon used during days gone past has been replaced with a Circus tent.

I think a moral of the story is “purchase want you like at a value that makes sense to you with little regard to what others say, feel, think, and even more importantly do not purchase based on what you have been told it might be worth someday”. I for one have never experienced someday however I clearly remember yesterday and am enjoying today.

Takes care

Shadowman


Bill, as always, a wonderful post. Have to agree with you and thank you for your participation.
 

B O N Y

MODERATOR & FGT OWNER
Mark IV Lifetime
Sep 5, 2005
12,110
Fresno, Ca.
Keith Martin was advised in writing prior to BJ that his BJ press credentials had been revoked and not to attend. This was due to a recent article in SCM by Martin and his Ferrari writer Mike Sheehan about the rapid decline in muscle car prices and some refernces to last years BJ about potential irregularities in the auction. I thought Martins column and especially Sheehans was lacking in a factual basis and prejudicial. Just my two cents.

Keith Martin chose to attend the auction anyway and then was escorted off the property allegedly due to disparaging remarks regarding the auction.

As a SCM gold subscriber and Keith Martin fan I found his judgement regarding the implosion of the muscle car market suspect in view of the fact he had authored many recent articles regarding the long term stength of the muscle car market? However I also think his comments regarding the issues and rumors surrounding BJ to be right on target and long over due. However in BJs defense from my experience and observations Russo and Steele has had much greater issues regarding phantom or chandlier bidders as they are called and owner buybacks on "no reserve" consignments then any of the other so called reputable auction houses.

Also in BJs defense they made a good faith attempt this year to preclude owners from buying their cars back when they were not bid up to the owners standards. Several owners bids were rejected and rescinded during the auction when the auctioneers observed owners trying to bid on their cars. Both BJ and RM were hours behind schedule perhaps due to greedily consigning too many cars which led to cars being rushed through in less than their allotted time.

As for so called counterfeit muscle cars this problem has existed since day one in the muscle car world however it has never been so common as it is today due to the stratospheric muscle car prices. Buyers need to become educated or pay someone who is prior to buying any muscle car from anyone. I am relatively knowledgeable but won't buy a Muscle car unless an expert physically inspects it first. It's a jungle out there in muscle car world right now.


Here are some facts for you Mr. CSX:-
1. It is legal in a reserve auction for the house to chandelier up to the reserve price. We can discuss the ethics all day long.
2. On the Russo & Steele contract there are provisions to buy back your car,
Drew has been ostracized for this practice.
4. Buying back your item is a practice to occurs, as long as the in/out commissions are paid it is practice that goes on. In addition, many consignors receive consideration on the commissions based on prenegociated deals, it is business.
5. Last year at B-J Scottsdale there were only a couple or reruns because the buyer overbid beyond their credit capabilities. Reruns would be easy to spot, since the cars run in their run number order.
6. I would suggest you be careful with your accusations of a company. I have attended every Russo & Steele Auction and find Drew's company to be 100% above board. Why do you think he is getting the great consignments he does, he runs belly to belly against RM in Monterey and B-J in Scottsdale.
7. Your comments about Martin and B-J contradict what has been published in the newspapers. If go to FerrariChat thread I linked to you will find what was published in the newspapers. Also, you will find Martin's article in the NY Times.
8. Shehan's has exercised her journalistic rights, and compared the Ferrari market collapse to what he foresees happening again. I think he is correct. Tell me CSX, Last year the LS6 Vert racer that went well over $1m, this year the sister car hammered for $110k, what about Grumpy's Vega, the market is sliding. It is ludicrous for you, more than anyone on this forum to use the words 'prejudicial.'
 
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fjpikul

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Jan 4, 2006
11,675
Belleville, IL
Hey Bony, what happened to number 3?
 

ChipBeck

GT Owner
Staff member
Mark IV Lifetime
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Feb 13, 2006
5,783
Scottsdale, Arizona
It's right here.

3
 

B O N Y

MODERATOR & FGT OWNER
Mark IV Lifetime
Sep 5, 2005
12,110
Fresno, Ca.

#3, the architect must have moderated the moderator, or I had one to many Makers Mark Manhattans?? :eek :eek
 

B O N Y

MODERATOR & FGT OWNER
Mark IV Lifetime
Sep 5, 2005
12,110
Fresno, Ca.
Here is what Autoweek writes about the Martin incident:-

AutoWeek’s Scottsdale Report
There’s no need to wait until AutoWeek arrives in your mailbox to get a fresh perspective on the recent controversial events in Arizona. Follow the link to read Senior Editor Bob Gritzinger’s thoughts.
http://autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070129/FREE/70129002/1065/THISWEEKSISSUE
 

Empty Pockets

ex-GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Oct 18, 2006
1,362
Washington State
Here is what Autoweek writes about the Martin incident:-

AutoWeek’s Scottsdale Report
There’s no need to wait until AutoWeek arrives in your mailbox to get a fresh perspective on the recent controversial events in Arizona. Follow the link to read Senior Editor Bob Gritzinger’s thoughts.
http://autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070129/FREE/70129002/1065/THISWEEKSISSUE


Hmmmmmmmm.

'No witnesses could be found to back up JACKSON'S story of events ... but, Autoweek quotes a guy who claims to have been with Martin all day who says HE didn't witness any of what Jackson said happened?

There's a strong odor coming from something here.
 

CSX 2104

GT Owner
Aug 9, 2006
31
Las Vegas
*edited*
 

dbk

Admin
Staff member
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Jul 30, 2005
15,238
Metro Detroit
CSX, I've read this entire thread just to see the basis for your first (now physically removed) post. There is none. Likewise, your second post, which I just edited out, is also baseless. Just for fun, I looked up all your posts. Seems they all have a decidedly combative tone.

Here's your opportunity to either act like an adult, or get banned. And it has ZERO to do with Dan. Internet warrior or rational adult. Your choice.
 

dbk

Admin
Staff member
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Jul 30, 2005
15,238
Metro Detroit
Well then perhaps you should pause for reflection on why it's a recurring theme for you. I think the indication is pretty clear.

It's the internet. Nobody makes you click or type on an address.

I have been "edited" as you call it from better joints then this.