Are race car drivers athletes ?
- Thread starter roketman
- Start date
On my Concept2 rower I see 170's on occasion.
Doubt that I would be good at driving there!
Mark
Cobrar
GT Owner
Xcentric
GT Owner
Please, let's not confuse heart rate with athletic fitness. Max heart rate is no indication of athletic fitness.
Out of shape is going to hit the limiter with little effort and crash (physically) shortly thereafter. Aerobically fit is going to be able to maintain 80% of max for the marathon (or for the endurance race shift).
Driving requires strength, endurance (stamina), visual acuity, reflexes, and of course skill. Maxing your heart rate while driving is NOT a good sign. You simply cannot maintain more than 80% of max for any length of time. You'll go anaerobic and that will be the end.
You can be a race car driver and not be an athlete (better not go longer than sprints!), but if you want to compete at a high level, you'll need athletic ability.
So...are race car drivers athletes? You don't have to be (especially if you're paying your own way), but the competitors at the high levels most likely are highly conditioned athletes.
Out of shape is going to hit the limiter with little effort and crash (physically) shortly thereafter. Aerobically fit is going to be able to maintain 80% of max for the marathon (or for the endurance race shift).
Driving requires strength, endurance (stamina), visual acuity, reflexes, and of course skill. Maxing your heart rate while driving is NOT a good sign. You simply cannot maintain more than 80% of max for any length of time. You'll go anaerobic and that will be the end.
You can be a race car driver and not be an athlete (better not go longer than sprints!), but if you want to compete at a high level, you'll need athletic ability.
So...are race car drivers athletes? You don't have to be (especially if you're paying your own way), but the competitors at the high levels most likely are highly conditioned athletes.
bonehead
GT Owner
Well put, Gary. You can be a fat slob with a resting heart rate of 95 and bump it up to 130 just going to the refrigerator. Doesn't make you a high performance athlete.
BlackICE
GT Owner
AJ Foyt and Mario A. were not thin in near the end of their careers. They would surely beat the pants off of any of us, but were not competitive at the highest level.
GTdrummer
GT Owner
The weirdest thing I can offer is that I have played golf with NASCAR drivers several times, and most were pretty awful golfers, but damned if they couldn't follow where the balls went. It was uncanny. My son is a professional golfer and he can't follow the ball as well.
BtwoG
GT Owner
Exactly the point. Racing is physically demanding, especially in any type of Formula car or kart. I'm in my mid-40s and excercise regularly but am far from an "athlete." I havent tried the HRM on a road course in a car, but expect it is not as strenuous as the kart. If you get out on the track, it WILL stress your cardiovascular system. Just be smart and be prepared.
The "Motorsport Fitness Manual" is a pretty good read on the topic.
PL510*Jeff
Well-known member
It's really a discussion about fitness…physical and mental.
Both are required to race a car. As is visual acuity.
The ability to self control heart rate, blood pressure and adrenalin come in handy on the track. Lots of studies on this.
Most top level drivers have levels of fitness that are equal to top level athletes.
Both are required to race a car. As is visual acuity.
The ability to self control heart rate, blood pressure and adrenalin come in handy on the track. Lots of studies on this.
Most top level drivers have levels of fitness that are equal to top level athletes.
I find that vehicle racing and ski racing have very much in common.
1) Both have governing bodies that establish the rules of the competition, to make it fair.
2) Both involve physical training to prepare the athlete.
3) Both require quickness and agility to respond to changing conditions.
4) Both require the athlete to have highly tuned visual acuity.
5) Both involve the athlete's ability to get the best performance out of the homologated equipment they are using.
1) Both have governing bodies that establish the rules of the competition, to make it fair.
2) Both involve physical training to prepare the athlete.
3) Both require quickness and agility to respond to changing conditions.
4) Both require the athlete to have highly tuned visual acuity.
5) Both involve the athlete's ability to get the best performance out of the homologated equipment they are using.
sahlman
Ford GT Team Alumni
McNabb's Ignorance
McNabb showed some extreme ignorance. It has been a while and this one hit a nerve so I wrote a book…forgive me. (blame Roketman for starting this thread) :lol
There are a ridiculous number of attributes that encompass criteria of athletes with many sub categories/details. Some sports exhibit the need to excel at a very wide range of those attributes (I would argue hockey, as one example). Some sports are biased to a much narrower range (I won’t start this argument!).
As a driver and more so as an engineer for some of the top drivers in the world I can quickly come up with the following criteria - some of which are noted by you guys prior. Racing requires many athletic attributes in common with many sports. And there are likely some I am forgetting, but these are the big hitters:
Courage – putting yourself in harm’s way - physically. Many sports require courage at varying levels, but few require it at the level of motorsports (Hemmingway's quote on the only true sports comes to mind). Great physical harm and death due to component failures, mistakes of your own or mistakes by others is real and constant.
Visual Acuity – Target acquisition – as noted by many here. Testing of many athletes, including race car drivers, showed drivers to be the very best at a test where they were asked to read the label on a spinning record as fast as possible. The race drivers dusted the rest of the athletes by a long margin.
Predicitive Ability – in my opinion, all great athletes are as much or more predictive than they are reactive. They predict two, three or more plays, moves or sequences ahead. They know where their teammates will be, where the competitors will be, etc. The best race car drivers have to do the same with track conditions, competitors and ultimately their own car’s behavior. They are rarely reacting and more often predicting its behavior.
Reactive Ability– their ability to read and react - their reflexes are in the top ranks of athletes.
Decision Making – like in football, hockey and many sports their predictive ability helps their split second decision making significantly. But they do have to make split second decisions they didn’t predict. For example, when to try to stuff it in the corner on a driver when they “slipped” a little and when to wait for another corner.
Multi-tasking and overall cognitive ability – like a great quarterback, but different - here is one that few people think about with racing, but it is one of the main elements that separates a good driver from a world class racer. The best of the best can drive at 100% (predicting, reacting, driving) while processing exactly what their car is doing and then give feedback on what they need it to differently to go faster. A good, even great driver can just handle the driving part, but not have capacity left to process the car’s behavior and give good feedback. They will never win a championship in any of the top series, yet alone win many races. The best have plenty of mental ability left over for very accurate feedback.
Endurance – mental and physical. They have to be fit.
Mental Endurance- There are few other sports, if any, that require such sustained focus and cognitive ability while “saving your life” and trying to beat the other 20 to 43 jokers around you. There are many guys who drive the car on the edge for a few laps, but very few who can do it lap after lap. It heavily has to do with the mental endurance required…along with the physical stress.
Physical Endurance – depending on the series the G loading is significant, as Tomcat noted. IndyCars run up to 5G braking, 4G cornering and up to 2 G vertical (on ovals) for a high percentage of two hours along with very high effort steering. Most people have no idea what 4 to 5 times their body weight feels like corner after corner compounded by vertical loading on the ovals. All while turning extremely high effort manual steering in a case like IndyCar. And constantly braking as hard as they can push the pedal at the end of every long straight.
While max heart rate alone is not a good indicator of fitness and athleticism, sustained heart rate can show the level of fitness including one’s anaerobic threshold. A race car driver’s sustained heart rate is high due to their physical workload in which they can maintain it due to their fitness level. And then deal with very high peak rates for short periods due to even higher stress events.
Strength – Cars like IndyCar, with very high downforce, allow the driver to push as hard as they can on the brake pedal at the end of a long straight. It is impossible to lock up the tires. So the stronger they are, the better their initial stopping power. Zanardi passed an awful lot of guys back in the day like they were chained to a post in the braking zone. I would argue the high G loading noted below takes pure strength as well. The average person couldn’t handle a single lap at full speed without passing out.
I am sure there are more, but this hits the highlights...any response McNabbit?:facepalm:
Scott
McNabb showed some extreme ignorance. It has been a while and this one hit a nerve so I wrote a book…forgive me. (blame Roketman for starting this thread) :lol
There are a ridiculous number of attributes that encompass criteria of athletes with many sub categories/details. Some sports exhibit the need to excel at a very wide range of those attributes (I would argue hockey, as one example). Some sports are biased to a much narrower range (I won’t start this argument!).
As a driver and more so as an engineer for some of the top drivers in the world I can quickly come up with the following criteria - some of which are noted by you guys prior. Racing requires many athletic attributes in common with many sports. And there are likely some I am forgetting, but these are the big hitters:
Courage – putting yourself in harm’s way - physically. Many sports require courage at varying levels, but few require it at the level of motorsports (Hemmingway's quote on the only true sports comes to mind). Great physical harm and death due to component failures, mistakes of your own or mistakes by others is real and constant.
Visual Acuity – Target acquisition – as noted by many here. Testing of many athletes, including race car drivers, showed drivers to be the very best at a test where they were asked to read the label on a spinning record as fast as possible. The race drivers dusted the rest of the athletes by a long margin.
Predicitive Ability – in my opinion, all great athletes are as much or more predictive than they are reactive. They predict two, three or more plays, moves or sequences ahead. They know where their teammates will be, where the competitors will be, etc. The best race car drivers have to do the same with track conditions, competitors and ultimately their own car’s behavior. They are rarely reacting and more often predicting its behavior.
Reactive Ability– their ability to read and react - their reflexes are in the top ranks of athletes.
Decision Making – like in football, hockey and many sports their predictive ability helps their split second decision making significantly. But they do have to make split second decisions they didn’t predict. For example, when to try to stuff it in the corner on a driver when they “slipped” a little and when to wait for another corner.
Multi-tasking and overall cognitive ability – like a great quarterback, but different - here is one that few people think about with racing, but it is one of the main elements that separates a good driver from a world class racer. The best of the best can drive at 100% (predicting, reacting, driving) while processing exactly what their car is doing and then give feedback on what they need it to differently to go faster. A good, even great driver can just handle the driving part, but not have capacity left to process the car’s behavior and give good feedback. They will never win a championship in any of the top series, yet alone win many races. The best have plenty of mental ability left over for very accurate feedback.
Endurance – mental and physical. They have to be fit.
Mental Endurance- There are few other sports, if any, that require such sustained focus and cognitive ability while “saving your life” and trying to beat the other 20 to 43 jokers around you. There are many guys who drive the car on the edge for a few laps, but very few who can do it lap after lap. It heavily has to do with the mental endurance required…along with the physical stress.
Physical Endurance – depending on the series the G loading is significant, as Tomcat noted. IndyCars run up to 5G braking, 4G cornering and up to 2 G vertical (on ovals) for a high percentage of two hours along with very high effort steering. Most people have no idea what 4 to 5 times their body weight feels like corner after corner compounded by vertical loading on the ovals. All while turning extremely high effort manual steering in a case like IndyCar. And constantly braking as hard as they can push the pedal at the end of every long straight.
While max heart rate alone is not a good indicator of fitness and athleticism, sustained heart rate can show the level of fitness including one’s anaerobic threshold. A race car driver’s sustained heart rate is high due to their physical workload in which they can maintain it due to their fitness level. And then deal with very high peak rates for short periods due to even higher stress events.
Strength – Cars like IndyCar, with very high downforce, allow the driver to push as hard as they can on the brake pedal at the end of a long straight. It is impossible to lock up the tires. So the stronger they are, the better their initial stopping power. Zanardi passed an awful lot of guys back in the day like they were chained to a post in the braking zone. I would argue the high G loading noted below takes pure strength as well. The average person couldn’t handle a single lap at full speed without passing out.
I am sure there are more, but this hits the highlights...any response McNabbit?:facepalm:
Scott
Cobrar
GT Owner
sahlman
Ford GT Team Alumni
Thanks Rex. Probably not really that beneficial here since I am "preaching to the choir", but writing it made me feel better!
Tomcat
GT Owner
I wish I had this "in my hip pocket" when I was a Navy Flight Instructor in Pensacola!
sahlman
Ford GT Team Alumni
Tomcat, yes you fighter pilots have all of these attributes in spades and then some. And you are playing for keeps. One of my best and most vivid memories involves your Pensacola pilots. I spent a summer renting jet skis in Gulf Shores AL just up the coast from you guys. We would see a lot of your planes, but they had been instructed to avoid Mach around the beaches because the natives complained heavily, especially early AM. One sunny 6 am morning I had my back to the water, but heard a boom and an incredible sound of fury, so I whipped around to watch one your fighters running down the coast at something like 50 ft off the water with a giant roost of water in its wake. I will never forget the sound and sight. Unbelieveably cool.
Scott
That's the sound of Freedom! I grew up sandwiched between Camp Pendleton Marine Corps Base, Miramar Navel Air Station, North Island Navel Air Station, San Diego Navel Base, El Toro Marine Air Station and few others. Times have changed a lot since then, as no one complained about the sounds of our defense forces for their own selfish reasons. Hiking Marine platoons would "fall out" for a break on the lawn areas near our elementary school.
While we were obviously in a riskier area, we learned to appreciate the military's efforts to protect us as the "Cold War" developed. Nowadays, when I see the troops (from the Marine Corps Winter Training Center at Pickle Meadows) training at our ski area, I never hesitate to thank them for their efforts to protect our country.
While we were obviously in a riskier area, we learned to appreciate the military's efforts to protect us as the "Cold War" developed. Nowadays, when I see the troops (from the Marine Corps Winter Training Center at Pickle Meadows) training at our ski area, I never hesitate to thank them for their efforts to protect our country.
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sahlman
Ford GT Team Alumni
Ralphie, you lived in a cool place growing up. For sure it was surprising hearing people complaining. I agree. I witnessed the sound and sight of freedom. Very, very cool.
Scott
Scott
Tomcat
GT Owner
I have property on Perdido Key so I know Gulf Shores well...and unless you got a BUNO on that airplane, it was NOT ME!
I think one attribute that you left out...and that I had in spades was naiveté, we didn't know what we could not do. Ps-I'm a RIO (like Goose in Top Gun).