A Comedy of Errors


B O N Y

MODERATOR & FGT OWNER
Mark IV Lifetime
Sep 5, 2005
12,110
Fresno, Ca.
Good work, however, I doubt Ford will get involved. I had a contract that a dealer failed to perform on the agreed upon price. Found out the name and address of the Ford Regional manager, contacted them, received a call from the state manager and was advised that commercial matters where between me and the dealer. When I complained to Ford in Dearborn's customer relationship people I received the same noise. Perhaps there are folks on this forum that can provide you with direct e-mails to various Ford executives who might be interested in this 'industry problem' of dealers wrecking client's vehicles. :thumbsdow
 

ByeEnzo

GT
Mark IV Lifetime
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Dec 10, 2005
2,299
Fort Worth, TX
Well, I went with my counsel today to see what the had to offer in terms of my damaged GT. The chief of their service and parts dept., and an underling to the GM met with us. I guess the GM was either too busy or wanted to avoid me. They responded to my demand letter of Monday. They had one of their adjusters look at my car at the body shop. This guy has no knowledge of the actual mechanism of the accident (push, swapped ends, ditch etc. - I still can't get a written or verbal account) but his report amazingly implies that some of the nose damage to my car occurred prior to the mechanic wrecking my car on 12/29/05. The photos show scratches going in 2 directions on the front aero pan under the car. Also the nose is fractured underneath where the pan attaches, and the clearshield is intact over it with some dirt under the clearshield. Their "expert" says that indicates previous damage before the shunt on 12/29. Never occurred to them that spinning the car and running the nose of the car into a ditch may have caused the "fracture" and dirt to get under the edge of the clearshield, in addition to explaining scratches in 2 directions. The oil cooler fins up front are also bent but the core is intact, but he says that may or may not have been caused by the wreck. Now gentlemen, I got this car with 3.9 miles on it and have not gotten near hitting a curb, driveway, or anything else up front. When the clearshield was applied, I inspected all aspects of the car and there was no damage to the nose top or bottom. They are just trying to throw a red herring into this whole deal to diffuse my claim (the glove doesn't fit). They also found corrosion on the aluminium under pans from the blown up battery. Not their problem, but this probably would not have been picked up if they hadn't wrecked my car and pulled the pans. Due to their generosity, Ford warranty will cover those parts, but it shows how marginal they are with repairs in general. My attorney friend and I got more info out of them than expected, in terms of where they are heading with this. After listening to this nonsense, we got up and left. We told them before they started their "dog and pony show" that only options one (new car) or two (refund) were viable and this car is "off the table". Based on today's "cluster" and general coverup of the incident, I'm inclined to start firing off letters on legal letterhead. I asked them what would happen if Wayne Huizinga (CEO of AutoNation) had a mechanic wreck his GT...would he get a new one? No answer from the oafs. Their total for damages is about $6K for parts and labor, but this does not include a new oil cooler, which they seem to want to ignore. Question to forum members... Knowing the history of this 350 mile '05 GT, how much if any do you think it is diminished in value? What would you do in this situation? I may go silent for a while, once the legal wrangling and letters go out. Thanks for all your advice. Peace, AC
 

ENZO BTR

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Sep 11, 2005
1,048
Southern California
Ugh!!

Un-effing-believable! Though sadly it shouldn't be. Let's see, corporation F's up, corporation tries to cover up and shift blame. Really pretty standard-issue behavior -- unfortunately.

I love this whole position. "Well, sure, we went off in the car. But we think you went off in the car first." Why don't they just add, "Actually, we think you went off in the car first, then brought it to us, tricked us into taking it or a test drive, then traveled through time to know where we'd drive it, then you threw oil on the road to make us crash. All to cover up the fact that you really went off first. Actually, we feel like WE are the victims here!!" :willy

I don't know how big of a stink all of the Ford GT Forum members can make about this with our combined resources, but I bet the noise will be loud...

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have a blog to write for my 1.4-million monthly visitors at Edmunds' Inside Line.com (http://blogs.edmunds.com/karl/)
 

1418

GT Owner
Mark IV Lifetime
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Nov 14, 2005
786
south FL
I can't believe it! I was sure they would accept responsibility and settle to your satisfaction. Then again I'm naive like that- I still do a great deal of business with a handshake and a little cuban coffee. I feel bad for you and I don't really know you.
Man- I was so happy with that beer and sheep stuff (I'm easily amused). Now pissed.


Stay positive and study your options carefully.

Manny #1418
 

ByeEnzo

GT
Mark IV Lifetime
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Dec 10, 2005
2,299
Fort Worth, TX
Karl, thanks for the plug on the Edmunds website. I was going to use NZO-BTR as my personalized plate here in TX. We can only use 6 letters or numbers on our vanity plates. Other choices were 1LEMAN and BYE-NZO. Guess that will have to wait while this saga plays out. AC
 

FORDGT001

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Dec 9, 2005
300
ByeEnzo said:
Well, I went with my counsel today to see what the had to offer in terms of my damaged GT. The chief of their service and parts dept., and an underling to the GM met with us. I guess the GM was either too busy or wanted to avoid me. They responded to my demand letter of Monday. They had one of their adjusters look at my car at the body shop. This guy has no knowledge of the actual mechanism of the accident (push, swapped ends, ditch etc. - I still can't get a written or verbal account) but his report amazingly implies that some of the nose damage to my car occurred prior to the mechanic wrecking my car on 12/29/05. The photos show scratches going in 2 directions on the front aero pan under the car. Also the nose is fractured underneath where the pan attaches, and the clearshield is intact over it with some dirt under the clearshield. Their "expert" says that indicates previous damage before the shunt on 12/29. Never occurred to them that spinning the car and running the nose of the car into a ditch may have caused the "fracture" and dirt to get under the edge of the clearshield, in addition to explaining scratches in 2 directions. The oil cooler fins up front are also bent but the core is intact, but he says that may or may not have been caused by the wreck. Now gentlemen, I got this car with 3.9 miles on it and have not gotten near hitting a curb, driveway, or anything else up front. When the clearshield was applied, I inspected all aspects of the car and there was no damage to the nose top or bottom. They are just trying to throw a red herring into this whole deal to diffuse my claim (the glove doesn't fit). They also found corrosion on the aluminium under pans from the blown up battery. Not their problem, but this probably would not have been picked up if they hadn't wrecked my car and pulled the pans. Due to their generosity, Ford warranty will cover those parts, but it shows how marginal they are with repairs in general. My attorney friend and I got more info out of them than expected, in terms of where they are heading with this. After listening to this nonsense, we got up and left. We told them before they started their "dog and pony show" that only options one (new car) or two (refund) were viable and this car is "off the table". Based on today's "cluster" and general coverup of the incident, I'm inclined to start firing off letters on legal letterhead. I asked them what would happen if Wayne Huizinga (CEO of AutoNation) had a mechanic wreck his GT...would he get a new one? No answer from the oafs. Their total for damages is about $6K for parts and labor, but this does not include a new oil cooler, which they seem to want to ignore. Question to forum members... Knowing the history of this 350 mile '05 GT, how much if any do you think it is diminished in value? What would you do in this situation? I may go silent for a while, once the legal wrangling and letters go out. Thanks for all your advice. Peace, AC
This is another reason not to own a "Ford" GT. If this thing was a F430 Ferrari do you think this is how you would be treated, I doubt it.
 

Kirby Vieira

GT Owner/B.o.D
Mark IV Lifetime
Sep 22, 2005
1,768
Atlanta
A Comedy...

Your experience is most unfortunate, but showing up with an attorney and making even the most subtle reference to legal action is usually not a good door opener to productive negotiations. Much damage has been done to your car and to getting an acceptable resolution; however, IMHO, if you are able to generate enough professional negative publicity for your issue, it will catch the eyes of Autonation Headquarters and Ford Mtr Co, whose images are their greatest asset. If this occurs, you will probably receive what you want and deserve.
 

B O N Y

MODERATOR & FGT OWNER
Mark IV Lifetime
Sep 5, 2005
12,110
Fresno, Ca.
FORDGT001 said:
This is another reason not to own a "Ford" GT. If this thing was a F430 Ferrari do you think this is how you would be treated, I doubt it.

Go to Ferrarichat and see the same horror stories....
Trust me, I know first hand... they finally yanked the franchise of Ferrari of Los Gatos which is now known as Silcone Valley Motors sans Ferrari/Masser franchise.
 

FORDGT001

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Dec 9, 2005
300
bony said:
Go to Ferrarichat and see the same horror stories....
Trust me, I know first hand... they finally yanked the franchise of Ferrari of Los Gatos which is now known as Silcone Valley Motors sans Ferrari/Masser franchise.
Anybody who knew anything about Ferrari's knew to stay away from Ferrari of Los Gatos long before they lost their Franchise, They were a bunch of Idiots from the word Go. My experience with most of the Ferrari dealers is they take care of their customers I have owned 4 of them. The problem here isn't isolated Ford dealers and Ford Motor haven't stepped up on more than one of these GT's, The dealers have a pattern here.
 

dbk

Admin
Staff member
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Jul 30, 2005
15,242
Metro Detroit
FORDGT001 said:
This is another reason not to own a "Ford" GT. If this thing was a F430 Ferrari do you think this is how you would be treated, I doubt it.

Are you kidding me? Whether it's a ford or ferrari, there's no garauntee an Autonation dealer would give a single shit about you or your car past his personal constitution.

The "Ford" portion of the equation has nothing to do with this very unfortunate and highly b.s situation.
 

dbk

Admin
Staff member
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Jul 30, 2005
15,242
Metro Detroit
Precisely. Unfortunately, AutoNation and Ford are not the same company, but every ounce of howling this forum and its members can do are at your call ByeEnzo.

The Karl blog can do some serious damage, so hopefully AutoNation is watching closely.

ENZO BTR said:
I don't know how big of a stink all of the Ford GT Forum members can make about this with our combined resources, but I bet the noise will be loud...

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have a blog to write for my 1.4-million monthly visitors at Edmunds' Inside Line.com (http://blogs.edmunds.com/karl/)
 

B O N Y

MODERATOR & FGT OWNER
Mark IV Lifetime
Sep 5, 2005
12,110
Fresno, Ca.
ByeEnzo said:
Well, I went with my counsel today to see what the had to offer in terms of my damaged GT. The chief of their service and parts dept., and an underling to the GM met with us. I guess the GM was either too busy or wanted to avoid me. They responded to my demand letter of Monday. They had one of their adjusters look at my car at the body shop. This guy has no knowledge of the actual mechanism of the accident (push, swapped ends, ditch etc. - I still can't get a written or verbal account) but his report amazingly implies that some of the nose damage to my car occurred prior to the mechanic wrecking my car on 12/29/05. The photos show scratches going in 2 directions on the front aero pan under the car. Also the nose is fractured underneath where the pan attaches, and the clearshield is intact over it with some dirt under the clearshield. Their "expert" says that indicates previous damage before the shunt on 12/29. Never occurred to them that spinning the car and running the nose of the car into a ditch may have caused the "fracture" and dirt to get under the edge of the clearshield, in addition to explaining scratches in 2 directions. The oil cooler fins up front are also bent but the core is intact, but he says that may or may not have been caused by the wreck. Now gentlemen, I got this car with 3.9 miles on it and have not gotten near hitting a curb, driveway, or anything else up front. When the clearshield was applied, I inspected all aspects of the car and there was no damage to the nose top or bottom. They are just trying to throw a red herring into this whole deal to diffuse my claim (the glove doesn't fit). They also found corrosion on the aluminium under pans from the blown up battery. Not their problem, but this probably would not have been picked up if they hadn't wrecked my car and pulled the pans. Due to their generosity, Ford warranty will cover those parts, but it shows how marginal they are with repairs in general. My attorney friend and I got more info out of them than expected, in terms of where they are heading with this. After listening to this nonsense, we got up and left. We told them before they started their "dog and pony show" that only options one (new car) or two (refund) were viable and this car is "off the table". Based on today's "cluster" and general coverup of the incident, I'm inclined to start firing off letters on legal letterhead. I asked them what would happen if Wayne Huizinga (CEO of AutoNation) had a mechanic wreck his GT...would he get a new one? No answer from the oafs. Their total for damages is about $6K for parts and labor, but this does not include a new oil cooler, which they seem to want to ignore. Question to forum members... Knowing the history of this 350 mile '05 GT, how much if any do you think it is diminished in value? What would you do in this situation? I may go silent for a while, once the legal wrangling and letters go out. Thanks for all your advice. Peace, AC


Gee -whiz, really a shame, but not a shock. First, as already stated, you will not get anything in writing from the dealer admitting culpability. If someone at the dealer levels writes on a letterhead that they wrecked your car, their career will be equally wrecked at AUTO NATION.

You can see the old rule of deny, deny, deny is coming into play,

Second, take a referal from John Draenas and get a TEXAS lawyer that really understand collector cars, not someone that is learning from a forum and does real estate or general law, it will cost you more in the long run. Most likely you will need an appraisal from a senior appraiser specializing in cars and a member of the American Society of Appraisers. For what it is worth I have been doing market reviews and auction analysis for Car Collector, Hemmings, Victory Lane and Sports Car Market, so I would like to think I understand the basics, but in a court of law without the ASA affliations my testimony would not hold water.

Keep in mind, when an Impala gets banged up, a reasonable owner should be willing to take back a properly repaired car, and might be sucessful in getting a deminished value claim, dependednt on wording on the insurance policy.
But.... collector cars are different, unless this can be explained rationally
to a judge in a pretrial conference you are behind the 8ball. Chance are you won't be in a trial, but a pretrail conference is very likely.

If you cars damage will be on a Carfax report you have major concerns and very serious deminished values. I would be very concerned about concealed damage as well, so you are correct in asking for a refund or a new car.

The bad news is your legal expenses and other costs will be out of pocket.
Not a good day at all, I feel for you.
 

B O N Y

MODERATOR & FGT OWNER
Mark IV Lifetime
Sep 5, 2005
12,110
Fresno, Ca.
FORDGT001 said:
Anybody who knew anything about Ferrari's knew to stay away from Ferrari of Los Gatos long before they lost their Franchise, They were a bunch of Idiots from the word Go. My experience with most of the Ferrari dealers is they take care of their customers I have owned 4 of them. The problem here isn't isolated Ford dealers and Ford Motor haven't stepped up on more than one of these GT's, The dealers have a pattern here.

Well, how about Ferrari of San Francisco aka as Mill Valley. Most of us buy from a dealer and get service elsewhere. I brought my car in on a flatbed for warranty and was told 43 cars are ahead of me.... sweeeeeeeet, not.
Yup, the fixed the issues, did some recalls, but I waited my turn, and no it was not my first, second, third, or fourth car I purchased from them. Just the way it is.


What I see with ByeEnzo's issues, is some GM who knows this 'cock-up' is going to cost him bonus bucks and starts playing an offensive game, instead of defensive game. Ford will not get involved directly, perhaps behinds the scenes. Chances are corporate will either resolve the issue, or Bye is going to have to go to war. I feel for him.
 

FORDGT001

GT Owner
Mark II Lifetime
Dec 9, 2005
300
Running Man said:
FORDGT001, I am not sure I caught any of your previous reasons for not purchasing a GT. Please enlighten us all. one bad decision by one lead foot mechanic who works for a bone head GM and the GT becomes a car "not to own". Thanks for the insight. Give me a break. Why is it exactly that you log into this forum? And I suppose I should just overlook the excellent service that I have recieved from my dealer. I know, I know, their just wolves in sheeps clothing looking to screw me as soon as they can. Thanks for reminding me. NOT! Please don't blame the studpidity of a couple of morons on one of the greatest cars ever produced.
I am Happy to enlighten you, I was the one who posted the story about the guy recently who bought a brand new 05 GT and he had a motor related mechanical problem with 300 miles on it, he takes it to the dealer who sold it to him and low and behold while the dealer is testing it the motor gets smoked. He of course takes his attorney with him to meet with the GM(Does this sound familar) and says he wants a new car because of diminshed collector value, He gets nothing, a replaced crate motor and a goodbye. So don't tell me that the GT is greatest car ever made, There is a Ugly trend here, whether I choose to buy a GT is my Business, I am glad for this Forum as it has Educated me Greatly so I know what I am getting into.
 

B O N Y

MODERATOR & FGT OWNER
Mark IV Lifetime
Sep 5, 2005
12,110
Fresno, Ca.
FORDGT001 said:
I am Happy to enlighten you, I was the one who posted the story about the guy recently who bought a brand new 05 GT and he had a motor related mechanical problem with 300 miles on it, he takes it to the dealer who sold it to him and low and behold while the dealer is testing it the motor gets smoked. He of course takes his attorney with him to meet with the GM(Does this sound familar) and says he wants a new car because of diminshed collector value, He gets nothing, a replaced crate motor and a goodbye. So don't tell me that the GT is greatest car ever made, There is a Ugly trend here, whether I choose to buy a GT is my Business, I am glad for this Forum as it has Educated me Greatly so I know what I am getting into.

..not to get into a contest, I posted that my new E55 Benz lost it's engine in the first weeks of ownership. I asked for MBZ to provide me with a number matching motor, they said not possible. Sold the car and moved on.

..frankly, I can't imagine bringing an attorney to a car dealer, if I asked mine to do so, they would reply they do business in their office and in a court room.

..best of luck to you in finding a mark that meets your expectations. While you have been here on this site you could not help but notice that most of us love our GT's and own or have owned other great super cars.
 

Neilda

GT Owner
Oct 19, 2005
3,559
London, UK
I expect the sentiment 'another reason not to buy a GT' was possibly said in haste as it is far too foolish to take seriously. A bad dealer experience does not detract from this iconic car.

BYE.. this is a dreadful experience and you MUST stick to your guns on this one. A letter to Ford will not do any harm, Autonation are Ford's agent and therefore Ford will be concerned about how they treat Ford buyers - 'The Pace Car for the Entire Company', isn't that how Ford describe the GT? Does the dealership experience match? I can feel a news story in the wings.

Lamborghini bought my Murcielago back after a similar experience, but I had to threaten them. To take a customers car, damage it and then suggest the damage was already there, is beneath contempt.

The views above about collectors cars is an important one - I would never buy a car (one that should either appreciate or at least hold it's value) if it's been mistreated. Every other car enthusiast would agree. The damage will be reflected in it's value. Beyond that, it's not what you friggin' want! (sorry, getting angry) - you didn't buy this car to have it damaged by these unprofessional ass wipes. You don't want to drive around in damaged goods. This is not a sodding Skoda.

Perhaps you could get some written statements from other dealers?! Phone a few and tell them you've got a Ford GT that's had a major shunt, what is it's value? They'll tell you - all good for background evidence I would have thought.

Please keep us posted.
 

ByeEnzo

GT
Mark IV Lifetime
Le Mans 2010 Supporter
Dec 10, 2005
2,299
Fort Worth, TX
One clarification. My "counsel", as I termed it, is a friend who in a former life raced for Carroll Shelby in CanAm, and has taught all kinds of performance driving, skip Barber etc. He is an experienced negotiator in his current business and can see through BS easily. He is not an attorney but a very astute businessman, my bad on the choice of words. It was good to have him there listening to their response. I have been in touch with John Draneas and also have an attorney here in Fort Worth lined up. We were not threatening or uncivil in anyway to these guys. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
 

B O N Y

MODERATOR & FGT OWNER
Mark IV Lifetime
Sep 5, 2005
12,110
Fresno, Ca.
ByeEnzo said:
One clarification. My "counsel", as I termed it, is a friend who in a former life raced for Carroll Shelby in CanAm, and has taught all kinds of performance driving, skip Barber etc. He is an experienced negotiator in his current business and can see through BS easily. He is not an attorney but a very astute businessman, my bad on the choice of words. It was good to have him there listening to their response. I have been in touch with John Draneas and also have an attorney here in Fort Worth lined up. We were not threatening or uncivil in anyway to these guys. Sorry for the misunderstanding.


...that sounds much better. The lawyer from Draneas should be an expert in automotive law, meaning he has a reputation that should be know in that industry and a list of experts.

...one major point, most competent automotive dealers have their service people check in a car and often times have a seperate form identical to what rental car companies such as Enterprise use to note any damage at time of check in. My position would be clear and short, car was perfect, put in your care, if there was damage you should have noted it in writing, you did not.

...again, my gut reaction, the GM is playing you. There is a reason why car dealers and salesman have the reputation they do, just read this thread. :bs
 

B O N Y

MODERATOR & FGT OWNER
Mark IV Lifetime
Sep 5, 2005
12,110
Fresno, Ca.
...another point, there may be special consumer law in Texas that will help you.
 

Neilda

GT Owner
Oct 19, 2005
3,559
London, UK
Clark's sister? :wink