24 Hours of Le Mans 2016
- Thread starter fordification
- Start date
- Aug 9, 2005
- 292
"Ganassi is now the only team owner in history to win the Indianapolis 500, Daytona 500, Brickyard 400, Rolex 24 At Daytona, 12 Hours of Sebring and 24 Hours of Le Mans. And it came in Ganassi’s Le Mans debut as a team owner."
Saint Ho
GT Owner
24 hours of Le Mans 1966 heritage footage with Ford GT rediscovered!
Just in case this incredible and charming film was nos shown here.
https://youtu.be/AdpWTLB0Y4I
Just in case this incredible and charming film was nos shown here.
https://youtu.be/AdpWTLB0Y4I
- Aug 9, 2005
- 292
What's the advantage for porsche always pulling away from the pack if there's the slightest bit of moisture on the track? I'm guessing braking and getting the power down would be more favorable. Otherwise, understeer I would think would be even more prominent.
Awsum GT
GT Owner '18
The rearward weight bias and distribution really helps them put power down in the wet.
Early 911s were quite tail happy and over the decades, Porsche has calmed this poor engine placement down to be more stable, refined, faster, and safer to drive. Modern 911s can still oversteer on entry but nothing like their predecessors. The 991 GTE racing car is a full blown racing car. They can tune the suspension to understeer or oversteer, just like any competitor out there. However it's a bit of a cheater IMO when the racing car has a double wishbone front suspension while the street car uses struts.
- Aug 9, 2005
- 292
Right. I imagine it's just that extra stability and balance with that weight right on the back end with less chance of the back end stepping out, and being able to counter steer with more throttle. Sort of like an awd car with adjustable front/rear bias for control, it's more favorable in the wet to shift it more rearward.
Cars with big polar moments of inertia (Porsche with a big heavy engine sticking far out the back of the car) are inherently less stable. It's like throwing a backwards dart in a way. Once you get that weight moving (rotating in a corner) it's difficult to stop it, which is why older Porsches are so easy to spin out.
You actually don't want to bw on the throttle asking the rear tires to accelerate when the car is sideways, since the tire already does not have enough grip to keep it cornering. The rear weighted Porsche just loads the rear tires better, which is favorable for putting power down in the wet.
You actually don't want to bw on the throttle asking the rear tires to accelerate when the car is sideways, since the tire already does not have enough grip to keep it cornering. The rear weighted Porsche just loads the rear tires better, which is favorable for putting power down in the wet.
Awsum GT
GT Owner '18
Maybe some of the other professional sports should consider using some type of BoP... Maybe a football team has too many good players... they should be penalized and have some of their players sit out for 1 or 2 quarters... Also after the game is over they can look at replays or take complaints from the opposing team and add more penalties and maybe take some points away from the winning team and give the win to the other team. This could make the other sports more equal and more fun to watch.
Cobrar
GT Owner
Cobrar
GT Owner
Just when the smile (from Le Mans) was wearing from my face - took my GT for a ride this afternoon. accelerated aggressively out of a turn, and enjoyed one of those polar moments. As long as you don't lift, everything works out just fine - Le Mans smile restored.
It's. A bit dangerous to believe in the misconception to "keep your foot in it" when the back end steps out. I've seen a ton of cars spun & crashed from this.
While staying on the throttle keeps weight on the rear (for grip and stability), if the rear tires are already sliding and especially if the car has enough power to reduce rear grip more than it adds, "keeping your foot in it" will often lead to a spin. Ideally, lifting off the throttle a TINY bit, to keep the rear loaded but not tires spinning is the best method but also by far the hardest and usually people are suckered in to going full throttle and spinning.
Lifting off the throttle transfers weight to the front, adding grip to the tires that turn. As long as they are pointed in the correct direction, and you "recover" quickly to avoid a hook-up in in the opposite direction, it's probably a better idea to lift when sideways to regain rear grip and keep the car pointed where you want it to go.
0.02
While staying on the throttle keeps weight on the rear (for grip and stability), if the rear tires are already sliding and especially if the car has enough power to reduce rear grip more than it adds, "keeping your foot in it" will often lead to a spin. Ideally, lifting off the throttle a TINY bit, to keep the rear loaded but not tires spinning is the best method but also by far the hardest and usually people are suckered in to going full throttle and spinning.
Lifting off the throttle transfers weight to the front, adding grip to the tires that turn. As long as they are pointed in the correct direction, and you "recover" quickly to avoid a hook-up in in the opposite direction, it's probably a better idea to lift when sideways to regain rear grip and keep the car pointed where you want it to go.
0.02
mal
Heritage GT Owner
An interesting reflection as to what happened at the end of the race:
http://www.dailysportscar.com/2016/06/24/five-things-to-worry-about-from-the-2016-le-mans-24-hours.html
http://www.dailysportscar.com/2016/06/24/five-things-to-worry-about-from-the-2016-le-mans-24-hours.html
FordGTGuy
Well-known member
What a terribly written article.
He focuses on the penalty while ignoring the more major issue of Ferrari ignoring a black and orange flag then never receiving punishment for ignoring it. Ford had every right to point out that the stewards were ignoring a broken part on the Ferrari that Ford was hit with on their #66 car earlier in the race and required them to pit for repair.
Just because you're 20 minutes from the end of the race doesn't mean you can just ignore a mandatory request to pit.
As far as BoP is concerned, you can't blame Ford for playing the system as the system is bullshit. If they wanted a race where only driver skill mattered then they should run a spec-race. The 24 hours of Le Mans should be about these teams bringing everything they can within the restrictions in order to win. By negating the work these companies have done to innovate with these cars you're basically pushing manufacturers away from wanting to support the league.
The author also seems to completely ignore that the 488 and Ford GT both received a BoP change after qualifying and before the race to make them slower while the Corvette and Aston Martin received a BoP change after qualifying to make them faster.
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Cobrar
GT Owner
Executive Summary:
Le Mans 2016 - A 24 hour race conducted in a public setting followed by a 24 hour protest disposition session, conducted in a private room, the latter to determine official race results. -- how you know the ACO/FIA/IMSA (GT class) business model is seriously broke.
Just Rant:
I've been around racing a long time and I found it impossible to rationalize this behavior/approach to my guest (non racer very smart gal) who tried her best to comprehend the dynamics of running 24 hours, awarding trophies, taking away trophies, and finalizing results in a non- transparent fashion. And what the heck is this race hard, but not too hard formula cap, such that you must NOT compromise results of the class ahead of you (LMP2). Running not closer than 7% of their aggregate speed? Damn, that's really weak.
The France family/FCO/FIA "formula for success" (BoP) is some screwy way to support a belief that people want to see equal performance, because that's good racing. Maybe in NASCARland, but I want to see superior processes and product prevail over contrived product. I think the aforementioned sanctioning bodies should operate a government, same approach. Or wait, they do don't they?
Revision to my Ford GT application:
So, after attending Monterey and LeMans, I would like to alter my Ford GT application. The reason that I want one, Is that I want to own a vehicle with a performance envelope that clearly possess mythical properties - it appears as a $0.40 business mailing envelope, but masks the capability to contain about 6'x8'x10' of innovation to combat the relative BoP formulas.
Now that's innovation - Nice work guys! ;-))
Le Mans 2016 - A 24 hour race conducted in a public setting followed by a 24 hour protest disposition session, conducted in a private room, the latter to determine official race results. -- how you know the ACO/FIA/IMSA (GT class) business model is seriously broke.
Just Rant:
I've been around racing a long time and I found it impossible to rationalize this behavior/approach to my guest (non racer very smart gal) who tried her best to comprehend the dynamics of running 24 hours, awarding trophies, taking away trophies, and finalizing results in a non- transparent fashion. And what the heck is this race hard, but not too hard formula cap, such that you must NOT compromise results of the class ahead of you (LMP2). Running not closer than 7% of their aggregate speed? Damn, that's really weak.
The France family/FCO/FIA "formula for success" (BoP) is some screwy way to support a belief that people want to see equal performance, because that's good racing. Maybe in NASCARland, but I want to see superior processes and product prevail over contrived product. I think the aforementioned sanctioning bodies should operate a government, same approach. Or wait, they do don't they?
Revision to my Ford GT application:
So, after attending Monterey and LeMans, I would like to alter my Ford GT application. The reason that I want one, Is that I want to own a vehicle with a performance envelope that clearly possess mythical properties - it appears as a $0.40 business mailing envelope, but masks the capability to contain about 6'x8'x10' of innovation to combat the relative BoP formulas.
Now that's innovation - Nice work guys! ;-))
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Awsum GT
GT Owner '18
Really... they have turned these races into a joke. I really believe they need to set the standards on weight, HP, some dimensions, fuel capacity limits and let the cars race... Also, how can they say Ford was holding back any more than the other teams… One of the GT’s on the podium took 1st place at Laguna Seca!
They are holding back new innovation and keeping things archaic. They have successfully removed most of the fun of going to a race… Of course, I will continue to go just to see the Ford GT kick ass where ever they race…
Bart Carter
GT Owner
He also fails to mention that Corvette and Aston Martin brought last year's spec cars to this year's race. Even the BOP couldn't help them enough to win.
texas mongrel
GT Owner
I chatted with some Aston crew members in the Chunnel on the way back to UK after the race (BTW, they all loved the GT and took tons of pics). They were all quite pleased with their results given that they were running an obselete car, but recognised that they need to step up their game a lot. Given Aston Martin's ongoing financial woes, I'm not so sure that this will be possible, tho'
PeteK
GT Owner
I'll differ on the statement about large polar moment of inertia being inherently less stable.
Point 1: The correct term is simply "moment of inertia," not "polar moment of inertia" (the polar moment of inertia is used to calculate resistance to deformation in bending or twisting of a solid object).
Point 2: On the contrary, a large moment of inertia provides MORE resistance to spins, because it takes more force to rotate the car.
I used to have a 944 turbo that I used on the track. For anyone who has not driven a 944 series car, they are very forgiving and allow the vast majority of us who are not professional race drivers to "save" the car when we get into a corner too hot or off the throttle in a turn too abruptly. The 944 series cars have the engine at the front, and the transaxle at the rear which does two things: first, it gets the weight distribution close to 50/50; and second, it increases the moment of inertia by putting those masses at opposite ends of the car (it also makes for a difficult driveshaft arrangement and clutch replacement, but that's a story for another time). Bottom line: They enter a spin more slowly, giving the less experienced driver more time to react and correct.
I'm glad I learned to modulate throttle and brake in a 944 before experiencing it in a 914 or 911! the 914 must have one of the lowest moments of inertia of any production car ever sold, and I spun that a few times. I haven't spun the 1973 911 (yet), but I'm very careful with it and it's not a track car; and I don't think I ever spun the 944 turbo unintentionally, although there was one time at the Glen that I almost lost it…
Braking: Cars with a rear weight bias do have an inherent advantage in braking. The reason is weight transfer. When you step on the brakes, the forward momentum of the car shifts the weight forward to the front wheels. You experience this as front end "dive." Well, in a FGT there isn't much dive, but you can sure feel it on a motorcycle--you can even get a 100% transfer and stand the bike on its front wheel. If a car has a 50/50 weight distribution statically, when you step on the brakes hard, it may experience a transfer of 20% forward which will make the dynamic weight distribution 70/30 during braking (this is why front brakes are bigger than rear brakes on almost all cars). Thus, the front tires are loaded much more than the rear tires, and the front tires will lose traction sooner. In a car that starts with a rear weight bias (e.g., a 911), the weight transfer shifts from say, 40/60 to 60/40, so it has an advantage in braking performance. Now, this isn't a huge advantage, but in racing every little bit counts.
Maybe I should have specified: cars with big REAR polar moments...are less stable.
Large polar moments have more resistance to change of direction, which on the REAR makes for an unstable and more difficult car to drive since once that weight starts to rotate, it's difficult to get it to stop rotating. On the other hand, a car with a 60/40 (F/R) weight distribution with the entire engine hanging out of the front of the car (Audi/Subaru) tend to be more stable, less agile, and tend to understeer.
Large polar moments have more resistance to change of direction, which on the REAR makes for an unstable and more difficult car to drive since once that weight starts to rotate, it's difficult to get it to stop rotating. On the other hand, a car with a 60/40 (F/R) weight distribution with the entire engine hanging out of the front of the car (Audi/Subaru) tend to be more stable, less agile, and tend to understeer.