Shadowman's Thoughts on a PPI; A What?

[Shadowman]

PPI is short for “Pre-Purchase Inspection”

Now when the gal’s were being sold new through the Ford dealerships this process as a secondary event was not necessary because as the gal was assembled someone signed off as to her good health and then the selling dealer was instructed to give her a once over just to make certain that nothing was missed furthermore a bumper to bumper warranty was part of the process for even greater peace of mind.

However now that the gals are being sold on the secondary market with many of them nearing the 4 year old mark the stories and associated concerns are ever present hence the reason for a qualified and IMO thorough PPI. Now let me state at this time; IMO the typical Ford dealer cannot properly complete this task because they were never trained on these gals; certainly there are a few however in the end it comes down to the individual rather than the facility. Get to know who is massaging the gal.

Having been associated with the automotive industry for far too many years to remember I have to share that the PPI process often times is little more than an exchange of value; meaning for a couple hundred dollars a facility will on their letterhead create a document that states something to this affect; we inspected this car and “near as we can tell the gal is in great shape with no signs of damage”. Now I am being overly simplistic because most will have a basic check list however the key phase is “near as I can tell” which is a disclaimer thus absolving them from downstream liability should issues be found at a later date. Then add to this CarFax has become a source for data however it can only share that which was presented and in the world of high end exotic cars many incidents go unreported because of the potential adverse affect on values; just remember that to a person every seller has the perfect gal.

So what does a person do when considering the purchase of a gal in the $200K priced range? IMO I feel that when considering a F-GT or ?? there are typically a small hand full of people that understand the gals and know what to look for; meaning just because her skin is smooth and shiny does not me that she has not been banged around and furthermore just because she fires and runs smooth does not mean that there are not underlying issues.

I think that a proper PPI inspection is a bit of an insurance policy and should be considered an investment in the process. I also feel that one should be prepared to pay for a PPI knowing full well that the results may present data that moves them onto a different car hence it is an expense that protected rather than produced.

Having said this IMO here is the greatest issue when it comes to PPI’s; the associated cost. If you call around a typical inspection is a couple hundred dollars and even at this price point many folks bow their necks and yet at the same time are akin to a kid in a candy store ready to write the $200K check; this has never made any sense to me. How much effort would you expect to be put forth during a PPI when the cost of this process is so little?

As an example here is what I look for when the gals visit my facility without even performing PPI; abnormal tire wear at a solo corner, unusual panel fits, is the proper hardware installed throughout the gal (indicating that she may have been taken apart), the small vin stickers on every panel, meaning the doors, fenders, bonnet, clamshell, etc. If I open up an area and find them to be missing I share this with the gal’s owner. I have found more than one gal with no such vin sticker on a front fender and when mentioned there was also NO reported history that this fender was replaced prior to them purchasing the gal and yet rest assured it had been. It is the law that the vin stickers be furnished on the panels and are NOT available for replacement panels.

So when it comes to asking for a PPI on a gal that you are considering the purchase of you need to know who is going to do the inspection; I hear people say all the time that “the seller took the gal to ?? and got the PPI inspection for me and I they even paid for it”; now this seems more like the means to assure the sale when compared to protecting you. When I hear this I quietly shake my head.

A proper PPI requires that the gal is initially driven so as to garner data about her feel on the road, that all systems operate properly, and any associated noises heard during the process noted for the next phase of the inspection. Then she needs to be placed on a lift and the under body panels removed, the wheels removed, the inner fender liners removed, and the door panels removed. Once this has happened all vin stickers will be found and secondary paint and or body work becomes exposed. Now assuming that all items within these areas pass then she is reassembled and then the fluid levels and visual conditions are checked followed by the removing of the spark plugs. They are visually inspected and then compression test is performed. I say compression test because in order to do a leak down the gal needs to be at operating temperature and to complete all 8 holes requires a restart mid way through the process as such I will complete a compression test and then based on the result decide if a leak down is needed to isolate a concern.

The key to a quality PPI is the honest and comprehensive collecting of data to be shared; now there is nothing to say that finding out that for example a fender was replaced is a bad thing or ??? however the knowledge of her true condition based on days gone past becomes the basis of her present value and potentially her future.

So can this process be completed for a couple hundred dollars; no and to expect such is silly and one would be better served to purchased the gal with no PPI as the odds remain the same and you will have saved the couple hundred dollars.

The moral of the story; if it sounds to inexpensive it likely is and if based on little or no front end investment you expect full disclosure then you are setting yourself up for a fall.

To complete a proper PPI on a F-GT or ?? is a 8-10 hour process for which one should expect to pay $1-1500.00. Now if this seems like a large amount then I dare say that considering a $200K gal must be an extreme consideration.

Consider this; because the number of these gals is extremely limited and their value continues to increase the number of resurrected gals will increase and many will be sold by brokers that in truth do not know her history.

In closing I suggest that to a person you are very careful out there because as time goes by the associated risk when considering such an investment goes up furthermore and sadly; BT Barnum lives and the world of salespeople and their stories will never cease.

Takes care

Shadowman

 

[nota4re]

Shadowman, per the request of B O N Y, I'll do the same and then maybe we can merge the lists.

 

[shelbyelite]

I think Shadow has made some very good points. Proper inspections will help ensure that you get a good car. If the person doing the inspection is a trusted person, we would have no problem letting them do one of these types of PPIs on any car that we sell. But one of the issues that some people are gonna run into is that when purchasing from an individual, some owners will be very reluctant to let someone keep their car for 8 - 10 hours and somewhat disassemble their car. As stressful as it can be on the buyer, the same stress can be passed onto the seller when they allow the inspection of their $200k car to be performed by someone that possibly they do not know and trust and risk the car being damaged during the inspection process. We actually do most of the procedures, that Shadow speaks of, when any car comes into our inventory, which has paid off for us in the long run keeping us from selling cars with any issues that could easily be found upon a good inspection. Upon arrival of a GT new to our inventory, we wash, dry, pull on the rack, inspect the underside for marks or damage, remove both rear belly pans, inspect motor and trans for leaks, check all fluid levels, remove wheels & tires, remove rotors and inspect them and the brake pads, closely inspect all painted panels for signs of paint work, etc. We then Road test the car for approx 10 - 15 miles (unless it is a car with less than 100 miles). This practice has really paid off for us in the long run. We are human and quite possibly could miss a little something here and there, but its rare. We did miss the fact on a recent car that a tire had been repaired due to a flat and now pay closer attention to any little spec on the tires of the gals. Long story short, Shadow is right! I guarantee that 8 out of 10 dealers do not do as much as we do, and that can result in a dealer selling a car that they do not know has a problem. We will allow any type of PROFESSIONAL PPI on any car we sell as long as we can verify the persons ability doing the work.

 

[B O N Y]

I am happy to see this thread. I really appreciate Shelby's reply. It says everything about his business and why we welcome him as a value added poster on this board.

A dealer that would not welcome Shadowman, THE GT GUYS, THE GT TECH to do a PPI should be avoided. There are plenty of great cars out there.

 

[Shadowman]

I think Shadow has made some very good points. Proper inspections will help ensure that you get a good car. If the person doing the inspection is a trusted person, we would have no problem letting them do one of these types of PPIs on any car that we sell. But one of the issues that some people are gonna run into is that when purchasing from an individual, some owners will be very reluctant to let someone keep their car for 8 - 10 hours and somewhat disassemble their car. As stressful as it can be on the buyer, the same stress can be passed onto the seller when they allow the inspection of their $200k car to be performed by someone that possibly they do not know and trust and risk the car being damaged during the inspection process. We actually do most of the procedures, that Shadow speaks of, when any car comes into our inventory, which has paid off for us in the long run keeping us from selling cars with any issues that could easily be found upon a good inspection. Upon arrival of a GT new to our inventory, we wash, dry, pull on the rack, inspect the underside for marks or damage, remove both rear belly pans, inspect motor and trans for leaks, check all fluid levels, remove wheels & tires, remove rotors and inspect them and the brake pads, closely inspect all painted panels for signs of paint work, etc. We then Road test the car for approx 10 - 15 miles (unless it is a car with less than 100 miles). This practice has really paid off for us in the long run. We are human and quite possibly could miss a little something here and there, but its rare. We did miss the fact on a recent car that a tire had been repaired due to a flat and now pay closer attention to any little spec on the tires of the gals. Long story short, Shadow is right! I guarantee that 8 out of 10 dealers do not do as much as we do, and that can result in a dealer selling a car that they do not know has a problem. We will allow any type of PROFESSIONAL PPI on any car we sell as long as we can verify the persons ability doing the work.

Well shared and I have not doubt that you and your team look at each gal as if she will remain in your family

Now my only additional comment would be; "IF" the selling party will not allow a comprehensive PPI then I would move on to another gal. The process of spending 8-10 hours is needed to complete the process and in doing this the associated risk to the seller is NADA unless something is found.

When considering a $200K gal whether the selling of or a purchase consideration all doors should be open.

Takes care

Shadowman

 

[PL510*Jeff]

Serious Business

Shadowman and Shelby "understand" the pitfalls of the used specialty vehicle purchasing process. It is truly buyer be aware.

The Ford GT is a serious Supercar. And they sell for some serious money. Unless you know the GT and it's owner extremely well, take the advice of those on this forum - spend a bit of time and money to really find out what it is you are buying.

The majority of Ford GT's have been been fabulously well maintained and always kept in pristine condition. A second or third opinion, prior to your purchase of a GT, will go a long way towards making your GT ownership satisfying.

That's my $ .02.

 

[B O N Y]

Would you buy a house without a tittle search and a home inspection?

 

[B O N Y]

The majority of Ford GT's have been been fabulously well maintained and always kept in pristine condition.

Jeff as usual hits the nail on the head. There have been some GT's that have been abused. We read about one in the last week or two that had a tittle wash...

It has been said that some of the GTX'S were damaged prior to conversion..

Do you feel lucky?

 

[BlackICE]

...Do you feel lucky?

Punk!

 

[junior]

Would you buy a house without a tittle search and a home inspection?

I did zero research and paid only $250 for my house inspection :lol:lol:lol, Ahhh those 1st time buyers :O

 

[B O N Y]

guess you felt lucky,...
I wouldn't brag about that...
But that is why I never spend time in traffic court
enjoy your weekend, off for a nice Rocky P and Makers Manhattan!

 

[Shadowman]

I did zero research and paid only $250 for my house inspection :lol:lol:lol, Ahhh those 1st time buyers :O

I had to smile as I read this; the disclaimers within are PHENOMINAL in most cases; and in all cases it is subject to that which they could see without looking beyond skin deep.

At this point in my life I like to manage my risk knowing full well I cannot remove it all together as such I look VERY closely however I also know that for many how she looks and runs at a given moment in time is fine which is why salvage titled vehicles continue to sell.

I used to be driven by emotions however today; it is a mechanical process until she becomes a member of my family.

All the best to all of you

Shadowman

 

[nota4re]

As usual, Shadowman’s views are very thorough and insightful. I respect his perspective a lot. I’d like to add another view.

For me, one of the most important elements of buying a used car is the “interview/valuation” of the owner. I should preface my remarks (lest anybody put any credibility in them), that I am a trusting person - probably to a fault. I do believe that I am a good judge of people and I may depend on this too much. I haven’t been burned before – perhaps I’m overdue and that day’s coming. I hope not!

As a contrasting view, I honestly believe that if I met George (MidniteBlu), Wally (Corbar1339), Kelvin (AlohaGT), Steve (SteveA), or MANY other people here on this board, I could see myself buying their car almost site un-seen. Scenario (picking on George as an example): Let’s say George advertises the Blue/White GT for sale and I have never met him before. I arrange to meet George at his house and we have a discussion about his GT. He shows me all of his paperwork, describes where and how he bought the car, all of the service work performed on the car, the fact that he is an orginal owner, the fact (so stated) that no paint or body work has never been done, the fact (so stated) that the underside is as clean as the topside, etc. All the while, I can see George’s passion, his honesty, integrity, straightforwardness, candor, etc. This would be an easy buy decision with a very cursory inspection of the car. Again, I would have the same strong comfort assessment from many other sellers….. Call me crazy.

The reality, however, is that the seller may not provide this level of comfort and confidence. My point is that the demeanor, trustworthiness, and believability of the owner HAS to be a factor. In my view, this factor will play a large role in dictating the thoroughness of the physical inspection of the car. Shadowman’s description of an inspection for me is the extreme – especially the removal of door panels and fender liners and I will only do this where the origin of the car was unknown or extremely suspect. Honestly, I would probably advocate walking away from any car that I though required this level of inspection – unless the price was just too good to be true.

OK, so what would I recommend for an inspection:

Look at the overall condition of the car with all body panels closed. Inspect finish of the paint and how well the cars appears to be taken care of. Feel waxed? Look for signs of nicks, scuffs, rock chips, door dings, etc. Look at the body seams and body panel fit. Look at paint color match. Inspect the front air diffuser. Inspect tow ring threads for use. Open and close driver and passenger doors – from both inside and outside. Feel for latch smoothness and ease. Carefully inspect door alignment. Open & close the front bonnet using both the key FOB and the manual latch. Remove bonnet liner. Inspect battery, cables, wiper mechanism. Use a flashlight and look at metal parts for any sign of damage or painting. Replace liner and fasteners. Inspect all 4 rims for road rash. Inspect wheel liners for fit and any sign of removal. Look at edges of wheel wells for paint consistency.

At the rear, look for fit of the clamshell. Look at gaps to quarter panels at each side. Inspect the rear diffuser looking for cracks, scuffs. Inspect bumper and exhaust tips. Look for any exhaust heat damage to exhaust surround. Look at rear bumper bolts for signs of removal.

Stand back at look at rear of car for uniformity. Inspect the clamshell. Look at the vents for any warping signs. Feel vents to see if tight. Pop the clamshell. Inspect side scoops on each side for any paint damage. Look at underside of clamshell for damage or repair marks. Look at overall cleanliness of engine bay. Look for signs of SC leakage. Feel underside of SC near pulley for oil. Inspect top front of intake manifold for signs of oil. Look at fuel injectors for any signs of leaking. Look for nicks, scraps or marks on silver-painted rails. (Could be signs of engine mods and/or repair work.) Inspect rear glass for any signs of small breaks or cracks. Look for any oil residue on glass. Look at rear tire tread wear. Consistent with miles? Look at halfshaft couplers. Stock or Accufab bolts? If stock, extra set of torque marks? Signs of transaxle fluid leaking into axle heatshields?

Look at airbox. Feel for presence of inlet stiffener. Inspect exhaust, cats, and clamps. Look at O2 sensors and connectors. Inspect A-arms and A-arm attachment points and alignment spacers. Use flashlight to try to see top of pans.

Start car. Let idle. Listen for normal idle and sounds. Turn off car and check oil level. Inspect and smell oil on dipstick.

Look under car at belly pans. Look at and around lift points for any damage. Look for any missing screws. Verify center tunnel screws are silver – especially where they meet mid-pan. Outer edge mid-pan bolts (3 per side) should have slightly larger heads.

Close clamshell. Inspect interior of car. Look at center trim/subwoofer panel. Inspect screws for evidence of removal. Inspect painted surface of console and dash pieces around radio. Verify all switches. Start car. Verify all gauges. Drive car if possible. Verify clutch condition. Confirm all gears on up-shift and downshift. Check reverse.

Do all results match discussion from owner? Any inconsistencies?

Optional Step 1:

If possible, place car on lift and remove rear and mid-pans. Inspect engine, transaxle and suspension components.

Optional Step 2:

Recommended especially if the car has had any SC upgrades. Remove and inspect sparkplugs – using magnifying glass if necessary. Compression check each cylinder.

 

[nota4re]

Example 2 (Real Life):

At the request of a prospective new owner, I inspected a 3K mile modified GT this past Friday. The price was consistent with market and mods. The prospective owner drove 3+ hours to see the car and brough a cash deposit to hold the car if needed. We both discussed the car with the owner as I performed the inspection described above.

The bottomline: I didn't find anything specifically wrong with the car. I did find a few things that were a little different than what I would expect. Most likely, nothing... but not perfect. Simultaneously, neither of us really "gelled" with the seller (original owner). Again, nice enough of a guy but maybe we were too seperated by age and social status. (Hey, don't confuse what I'm saying.... "he" was both much younger and wealthier than me.) Anyway, the "comfort" was not there - likely as much my fault as his.

The prospective buyer and I both decided that he should pass. Frankly, I think that if the car was perfect, the buyer would have closed the deal. Similarly, if there was a better comfort with the owner, the car would have sold too. Call both recieving an "8" on a scale of 1 to 10 and the buy decision needed an 18.

Now, we could have proceeded to the next step of lifting the car, performing the compression check, etc. But, there's probably other cars out there that will turn out to be a better match between buyer and seller.

 

[Shadowman]

As usual, Shadowman’s views are very thorough and insightful. I respect his perspective a lot. I’d like to add another view.

For me, one of the most important elements of buying a used car is the “interview/valuation” of the owner. I should preface my remarks (lest anybody put any credibility in them), that I am a trusting person - probably to a fault. I do believe that I am a good judge of people and I may depend on this too much. I haven’t been burned before – perhaps I’m overdue and that day’s coming. I hope not!

As a contrasting view, I honestly believe that if I met George (MidniteBlu), Wally (Corbar1339), Kelvin (AlohaGT), Steve (SteveA), or MANY other people here on this board, I could see myself buying their car almost site un-seen. Scenario (picking on George as an example): Let’s say George advertises the Blue/White GT for sale and I have never met him before. I arrange to meet George at his house and we have a discussion about his GT. He shows me all of his paperwork, describes where and how he bought the car, all of the service work performed on the car, the fact that he is an orginal owner, the fact (so stated) that no paint or body work has never been done, the fact (so stated) that the underside is as clean as the topside, etc. All the while, I can see George’s passion, his honesty, integrity, straightforwardness, candor, etc. This would be an easy buy decision with a very cursory inspection of the car. Again, I would have the same strong comfort assessment from many other sellers….. Call me crazy.

The reality, however, is that the seller may not provide this level of comfort and confidence. My point is that the demeanor, trustworthiness, and believability of the owner HAS to be a factor. In my view, this factor will play a large role in dictating the thoroughness of the physical inspection of the car. Shadowman’s description of an inspection for me is the extreme – especially the removal of door panels and fender liners and I will only do this where the origin of the car was unknown or extremely suspect. Honestly, I would probably advocate walking away from any car that I though required this level of inspection – unless the price was just too good to be true.

OK, so what would I recommend for an inspection:

Look at the overall condition of the car with all body panels closed. Inspect finish of the paint and how well the cars appears to be taken care of. Feel waxed? Look for signs of nicks, scuffs, rock chips, door dings, etc. Look at the body seams and body panel fit. Look at paint color match. Inspect the front air diffuser. Inspect tow ring threads for use. Open and close driver and passenger doors – from both inside and outside. Feel for latch smoothness and ease. Carefully inspect door alignment. Open & close the front bonnet using both the key FOB and the manual latch. Remove bonnet liner. Inspect battery, cables, wiper mechanism. Use a flashlight and look at metal parts for any sign of damage or painting. Replace liner and fasteners. Inspect all 4 rims for road rash. Inspect wheel liners for fit and any sign of removal. Look at edges of wheel wells for paint consistency.

At the rear, look for fit of the clamshell. Look at gaps to quarter panels at each side. Inspect the rear diffuser looking for cracks, scuffs. Inspect bumper and exhaust tips. Look for any exhaust heat damage to exhaust surround. Look at rear bumper bolts for signs of removal.

Stand back at look at rear of car for uniformity. Inspect the clamshell. Look at the vents for any warping signs. Feel vents to see if tight. Pop the clamshell. Inspect side scoops on each side for any paint damage. Look at underside of clamshell for damage or repair marks. Look at overall cleanliness of engine bay. Look for signs of SC leakage. Feel underside of SC near pulley for oil. Inspect top front of intake manifold for signs of oil. Look at fuel injectors for any signs of leaking. Look for nicks, scraps or marks on silver-painted rails. (Could be signs of engine mods and/or repair work.) Inspect rear glass for any signs of small breaks or cracks. Look for any oil residue on glass. Look at rear tire tread wear. Consistent with miles? Look at halfshaft couplers. Stock or Accufab bolts? If stock, extra set of torque marks? Signs of transaxle fluid leaking into axle heatshields?

Look at airbox. Feel for presence of inlet stiffener. Inspect exhaust, cats, and clamps. Look at O2 sensors and connectors. Inspect A-arms and A-arm attachment points and alignment spacers. Use flashlight to try to see top of pans.

Start car. Let idle. Listen for normal idle and sounds. Turn off car and check oil level. Inspect and smell oil on dipstick.

Look under car at belly pans. Look at and around lift points for any damage. Look for any missing screws. Verify center tunnel screws are silver – especially where they meet mid-pan. Outer edge mid-pan bolts (3 per side) should have slightly larger heads.

Close clamshell. Inspect interior of car. Look at center trim/subwoofer panel. Inspect screws for evidence of removal. Inspect painted surface of console and dash pieces around radio. Verify all switches. Start car. Verify all gauges. Drive car if possible. Verify clutch condition. Confirm all gears on up-shift and downshift. Check reverse.

Do all results match discussion from owner? Any inconsistencies?

Optional Step 1:

If possible, place car on lift and remove rear and mid-pans. Inspect engine, transaxle and suspension components.

Optional Step 2:

Recommended especially if the car has had any SC upgrades. Remove and inspect sparkplugs – using magnifying glass if necessary. Compression check each cylinder.

Thank you Kendal

I agree with your comments and I too have and will continue to purchase gals without a structured PPI when from within a circle of associates/friends however;

The majority of the F-GT owners are not active on this or any Forum as such the greatest number of F-GTs to change hands will not be a part of the circle as developed/develops overtime within this Forum.

We are extremely fortunate in that this Forum has evolved into something very special as such I too would not have a concern if considering a purchase from several Forum members as well.

Thank you again for your comments and insight

Regards

Shadowman

 

[nota4re]

I agree with your comments and I too have and will continue to purchase gals without a structured PPI when from within a circle of associates/friends however;

Shadowman, I agree that we may not often be fortunate enough to buy from "friends". Just to be clear, my scenario assumed I had just met someone like George, Steve, Wally, etc. If/when I meet someone like that along with all of their corroborating documentation, the physical inspection can be "light".